Talk:Jimmy Buffett

ok to add this 1975 photo?
at https://www.flickr.com/photos/hmk/53159364482/ It has a Attribution 2.0 Generic (CC BY 2.0) license https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/. Is that OK with Wikipedia? Anyone else is welcome to add it too. Ttulinsky (talk) 20:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * If the copyright owner of the photograph actually licensed it as CC BY, then it could be uploaded to Commons. However, I can find the same image on various other websites (searching for "Jimmy Buffett with Willie Nelson in 1975") and therefore I doubt the Flickr user is the copyright holder, and I would question the license. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 02:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Just some suggestions...
First of all, great piece! --Would be fun to see a mention of his run-in with Sheriff Buford Pusser of Walking Tall fame. I've heard Buffett mention this during concerts. --No mention of the Coconut Telegraph newsletter that ran (I THINK it's now defunct) for several years; I used to subscribe. --Would be great to see a brief mention of JB's affinity with the Navy, such as his doing survival training at a Navy facility and his friendship with some naval officers, and his public service award granted by, I believe, either the Superintendent of the Naval Academy or maybe it was the Chief of Naval Operations. Finz2right (talk) 16:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Adding Howard Livingtson as musician perpetuating Bufffet's "seaside-and-booze themes"
I would like to add Howard Livingston in the "Musical Legacy" sesction of the Jimmy Buffett page as a musician "that have "latched on to his seaside-and-booze themes" such as Kenny Chesney, Alan Jackson, and Zac Brown."

I carefully followed Wikipedia guidelines for "Notability" for doing so, and I tried to cite credible third-party sources.

However after I posted the addition, at 03:02, 21 September 2023‎ Binksternet Reverted my addition saying "Let's keep it to well-known artists here."

But my reasons for adding Howard Livingston is because he seemed to fit squarely into the "Notability" guidelines on Wikipedia for adding musicians, especially as referring to Jimmy Buffett, as Howard Livingston actually satisies at least two of the criteria applicable to Musicians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Criteria_for_musicians_and_ensembles

I documented the addition of Howard Livingston to the list with references to valid news sources - CBS News, Public Radio, newspapers, etc. As the first article I cite says, he is a *major* local musician in Key West, and was the "master of ceremonies" of a celebration about Jimmy Buffett held there earlier this month, where he spoke about Buffett. He also was recently a major presenter along with elected officials - five of the Monroe County Commissioners - celebrating the 200th anniversary of Key West, showing his importance to the Florida Keys as a musician who exemplified the Jimmy Buffet lifestyle and music. Howard Livingston's music is "spot on" in the Jimmy Buffett style, yet all his music is original and he does not do "covers." He has been featured on The Today Show, Good Morning America, The Early Show, The Travel Channel, and The Weather Channel. . His song “Living On An Island” was the theme song for the Discovery Network - a major cable television station - “Buying The Beach” series He has won 10 awards from the national "Trop Rock Association." So how can he not be "well known" as you claim? Specifically, Howard Livinston seems to satisfy two of the dozen Wikiepedia criteria Notability for musicians:

'''7. Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city. 12. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network.'''

I didn't think I needed to cite more than the several news media citations that I already gave in order to show his satisfying these criteria. It seems that would be overkill?

Do I need to create a Wikipedia page focused solely on Howard Livingston before I can add him as a reference to the list of major other artists who perform in the spirit of Jimmy Buffet?

I have many more citations I could give than those I included here to justify the addition of Howard Livingston to the list of musicians that are part of Buffett's musical legacy, but I didn't want to include more than a few citations, but I could give more in a full article.

What I submitted to this Jimmy Buffet page that Binksternet deleted was:

Added musician Howard Livingston and external references showing his influence as part of the Key West "trop rock" phenomenon.). with these references:

Muirpower (talk) 14:53, 22 September 2023 (UTC)


 * To be clear, we are talking about this edit which added Howard Livingston along with Kenny Chesney, Alan Jackson, and Zac Brown who have cited Buffett as an influence. I immediately responded to the fact that the other three artists are famous unlike Livingston. The addition was lopsided.
 * Most of the cited sources don't even mention Buffett. When there are sources that don't mention the article topic then you are looking at some form of synthesis rather than sources stating a connection explicitly.
 * I'm sure that Buffett would be considered important to the story of Livingston's career. But is Livingston important to Buffett? Nobody says so. Does mentioning Livingston help the reader understand Buffett? I don't see it.
 * Wikipedia has some advice about this kind of thing. WP:COATRACK says that we should not tack on some other topic to try and get more eyeballs on that topic. WP:WTAF says "write the article first" before asserting that a topic is notable. Binksternet (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)


 * So, would you and Wikipedia be open to my starting a separate "new article" on Howard Livingston? Would he qualify as "notable" sufficiently for you if posted separately from Jimmy Buffett? I do have multiple additional published sources from what I believe are independent credible media (news sources, etc.) other than his official website. Muirpower (talk) 17:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to start the Howard Livingston article. Once it is written, you should not try to shoehorn Livingston into this article by inserting his name after the Jon Pareles quote "latched on to his seaside-and-booze themes". Only those musicians listed by Pareles should follow that quote. Otherwise you would be falsely implying that Pareles listed Livingston.
 * If the Livingston biography can stand on its own, then we should tell the reader something better tailored to him. We should summarize the sources talking about how Livingston was influenced by Buffett. Binksternet (talk) 03:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll work on it. The only reason I attempted to what you call "shoe horn" him in this article was because Livingston to me is mostly a musician who fully *exemplifies" Jimmy Buffet's style of music, and a whole article independent *might* by some seem overkill though that may depend on who who talk to. At first I thought he was mostly of regional importance, but as I research him further it seems clear that he meets both prongs of criteria #7 of the Wikipedia "Notability" criteria for Musicians. I'll try to collect as many *valid* references for an entry on him to incorporate before I attempt to post it. Thanks for your guidance on this!  (I will say that as a historian, Wikipedia's specific rejection of Primary sources seems to me to be very strange. In all academic fields I've been involved with, "Primary sources" always have precedence over "secondary sources."  If Wikipedia does not follow traditional academic practices, it looses a lot of my esteem.) Muirpower (talk) 22:33, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The goal of Wikipedia is to summarize published sources. There is a policy called WP:No original research to prevent folks from using Wikipedia as their publishing platform. The publishing must happen elsewhere. WP:SECONDARY sources are the best ones for Wikipedia, although limited usage of primary and tertiary sources is allowed.
 * Every scholar, author and journalist should use primary sources and perform their own research. Wikipedia users are not allowed to do this. Binksternet (talk) 00:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)