Talk:Joaquín Sáenz y Arriaga

unencyclopedic article
I don't know where to begin describing what's wrong with this article! It would appear that there isn't even an attempt to apply npov to this subject. More about this later... Juxtatype 07:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You won't believe it but I was baptized by “Padre Sáenz”, as he was known to us in my family.


 * I have just read the article and was shocked to learn that he died on 28 April 1976. I didn’t know that. What a coincidence! That day, 28 April 1976, occurred a major catastrophe in my life.


 * I know very little of Padre Sáenz besides the stories I heard in the family. Can you tell me please why is the article tagged?


 * Also, I have photographs of him; for instance, when he gave me the first communion. If I find one of them, I think I may upload an image of him tomorrow.


 * —Cesar Tort 06:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Cesar, for your comments. I have changed the tags on this page so that they better reflect my objections. First, the article is written in an unencyclopedic style -- it sounds more like a fan site than a neutral article. Second, there are no references at all. The article states things like, "He was brought up in the spirit of the Cristero movement, in the spirit of St. Miguel Pro and other Catholic martyrs...". Now, that may or may not be true, but it is not an appropriate line for an encyclopedia article. -- Juxtatype 17:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Juxtatype for changing the tags. I have added the image. I am tempted to do a little research here in Mexico about Fr. Sáenz to reference this article. —Cesar Tort 19:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile I have made several copyedits to NPOV the previously POV article.


 * Is the first tag still needed? To me it looks neutral now, after still more copyedits. What do you think?


 * —Cesar Tort 05:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I just removed the essay-article tag since it does not look anymore as an essay. I still have to contact the Mexican Jesuits to gather more info about Fr. Sáenz though. —Cesar Tort 21:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again, Cesar. It does seem much better. I am at a bit of a disadvantage since I know very little about Fr. Sáenz, but I think your changes are definitely an improvement. — Juxtatype 06:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I just contacted the Jesuits. One of them says he will look in the archives and he will give me a phone call when he finds something :) —Cesar Tort 15:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The Jesuits have just sent me the following info about Fr. Sáenz, which I will now incorporate in the article:




 * Also, the book I included in the Reference section —:


 * Rius Facius, Antonio (1980). ¡Excomulgado!, trayectoria y pensamiento del presbítero Dr. Joaquín Sanz Arriaga (Excommunicated: trajectory and thought of presbyter Dr. Joaquín Sanz Arriaga).


 * —contains all info included in the article. With time I will place the proper endnotes with the specific pages.  Meanwhile I am removing the “unreferenced” tag. Cesar Tort 19:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

"several thousands adherents"??
User:Smith2006: you changed this paragraph—:

"Presently, in Fr. Sáenz's native country [Mexico] Sedevacantism, as a challenging traditionalist Catholic movement, is virtrually death."

—to this one:

"Presently, in Fr. Sáenz's native country Sedevacantism, as a challenging traditionalist Catholic movement, is a minor movement with several thousands adherents, mainly served by priests and bishops of the Union Católica Trento, who are active in several chapels and churches.[my emphasis]"

Recently I interviewed Antonio Rius Facius at his home, the author of the only biography about Fr. Sáenz. Rius-Facius told me that the Sáenz group no longer exist. He, who is very old, and a couple of friends are the only survivors, he told me.

Do you have a source to back up your copyedit? Anyway: I will phone call Rius-Facius today to double check this issue.

—Cesar Tort 16:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I have had the phone conversation a minute ago.

Rius-Facius corroborates that in Mexico the Sáenz movement is almost death, so I will revert to the original phrase. Rius-Facius, who has shown me his personal archive on Fr. Sáenz (he also gave me the photo of a very young Joaquín which I uploaded today), says that the last remnant of the movement was a woman called Gloria Riestra and, ten years ago, a small group of churchmen in a temple near La Alameda in downtown Mexico City. He says that most of them are death right now.

—Cesar Tort 19:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)