Talk:Joe's Garage

Citation style
I have no objection to a change in citation style as long as they are consistent and allow the reader to find the cited content by page number. Viriditas (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Performances
I know this album has been performed on stage as an actual Opera at least once, though after Zappa died. Is there anything else about its performance history that should be put up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.194.26.125 (talk) 04:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits
I've reverted a spate of recent edits that erroneously contradicted the sources, demanded citations for summarized info in the lead and for other reasons. I will be reviewing other edits to see if some can be restored as well as removing overlinking which appears to have accumulated. Viriditas (talk) 00:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Mr Central Scrutinizer. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Re: : Does one of the sources for the article not count "A Little Green Rosetta" in the track listing? I ask because "Packard Goose" is described as "penultimate" and I now notice that the article says the album ends with "Watermelon in Easter Hay". DEIDATVM (talk) 21:37, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Blackface
Apart from some fleeting mentions in a few discussion fora, I can find nothing definitive online about the material used to blacken Zappa's face. If doesn't look like engine oil to me, more like black stage make-up, typically used to produce blackface. Does anyone have any good source(s)? Does it matter? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I already had restored blackface per the unsourced car oil. I don't think we need a source for black, and I'm sure Zappa wouldn't have car oil on his face, right? - DVdm (talk) 14:31, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't why he wouldn't have car oil, if that was what he really wanted at the time. But yes, maybe the record label had a stringent health and safety policy? I must admit those hands do look, to me, like those of a professional make up artist. I'm just suggesting that it would be better to have a source either way. And of course, that's not traditional "blackface", as the eyes and lips are not highlighted. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Were there any criticisms of his blackface? Did Zappa ever make a statement about it? If so, this might be worth a mention in the article. I am not able to locate any credible references online. Merlin1935 (talk) 16:49, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think a major point is being missed here. It's called "Joe's GARAGE" ... what's a popular term for mechanics? GREASE Monkeys. Frank's not wearing "blackface", a dangerous tag in the 20th & 21st Centuries, he's supposed to be covered in GREASE.( Albeit on a level of overkill.). What was actually used? Looks like maybe black pancake makeup, perhaps? It's a moot point, actual grease is most likely too toxic to be smearing all over your skin. What it boils down to, is that Frank isn't wearing "black face" ala "Amos 'n' Andy" or a Minstrel Show ... he's a - very filthy - guy working in a garage, pure and simple,no need to over think it. 75.107.98.166 (talk) 00:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Canoga Park, California
Is there a problem with the idea of mentioning the fact that Joe is from the Cangoa Park section of Los Angeles in the plot? -User:DanTD (talk) 17:29, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see how. So I've added it. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

GA status
I am considering restoring the original GA version as this article has degenerated into random nonsense and the quality has been hampered by an incredible number of vandalized versions and meaningless edits. Viriditas (talk) 21:07, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Restored lead section. An editor removed the lead and split it into an “overview” section. We don’t do that. The page history shows this user was indefinitely blocked as a sock.
 * Removed extra album art cover. Already covered in release section.
 * Removed following “one off” quote sourced to an obscure source for no rhyme or reason: "Zappa described the album as a "stupid little story about how the government is going to do away with music." I’m all for restoring this quote if someone can verify. —Viriditas (talk • contribs) 21:35, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion at Blackface
I noticed an edit by over at Blackface removing a sourced description of the cover of Joe's Garage as blackface. This is inconsistent with the text of this article which describes it as blackface. I am not agreeing or disagreeing as to whether it is blackface but the two articles should be consistent as to the validity of the same claim. 93 (talk) 01:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I started a discussion as to whether the album cover is Blackface or not at Talk:Blackface. Please discuss there to avoid a discussion fork. 93 (talk) 22:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC) Discussion changed to this page per MartinEvans123. 93 (talk) 01:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)


 * If your concern is purely about consistency, I think you should have discussed it here. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2022 (UTC)


 * All I can say is that I've owned this record for 40 years and it never occurred to me that it might be anything other than engine oil. There's certainly nothing in the album's content to justify a reference to blackface so I'd say the claim is tenuous at best. Still, Zappa's penchant for mischief doesn't rule it out entirely. Patrick Neylan (talk) 16:34, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Similarly, after 40 years, I thought the clue was in the word "Garage". And the mop. The narrative makes no suggestion of "dandified coons" or "minstrel shows". And there's no attempt to emphasise the eyes and lips with white and red respectively. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:51, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * The cover photo was taken as part of a photoshoot (apparently originally meant to produce cover art for Läther) wherein Zappa had various things smeared onto his face and then wiped off- including not just the "grease"/"blackface" makeup, but a cream pie, and other colors and patterns of face paint. In this original context, it's pretty clearly not meant as blackface, and it's hard to read it as such. But by singling out the "grease" makeup photos and using them for Joe's Garage, Zappa removed that context, and he was surely conscious that, regardless of the original context/intent, some people would read it as blackface. (His prior album, Sheik Yerbouti, featured a cover photo of Zappa in a keffiyeh, evoking a vaguely "Arab" image in conjunction with the title, which also adds to the context of the art-as-released.) He was presumably fine with this, given how inclined he was to provocation in his art and public statements; and there's possibly deliberate irony to it too, in that the lead singer on much of Joe's Garage, the voice of Joe himself, was Ike Willis, a Black man, and that a track on Act II (Dong Work for Yuda) features a white man (Terry Bozzio) doing an impression of a Black man (John Smothers, Zappa's bodyguard). So- I think it's wrong to just unequivocally refer to the cover art as "Zappa in blackface" without that context. It's definitely notable that it's been interpreted as blackface. It'd be good to have a more detailed/nuanced writeup of this, though I'm not immediately aware of any reliable sources that discuss the original context of the art + the way it's been read post-release. As-is, the article flatly says that it's Zappa in blackface, and this statement is cited to Slavin's book Electric Don Quixote (a reliable source) and a book of short stories (probably not a reliable source for this sort of factual statement). Yspaddadenpenkawr (talk) 17:26, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Can we agree to remove Lyons (2008), 91 Gordon Street: The Complete Short Stories as a source, as it is a work of fiction? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I removed the Lyons citation. There's already a good source for the statement it was cited for, so the text doesn't need to change. Yspaddadenpenkawr (talk) 00:43, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Consistent song names
Hi all,

There are song titles from the original song list (e.g. "Wet T-Shirt Nite") and the revised song list (e.g. "Fembot in a Wet T-Shirt") within the body of the article.

I would like to amend these to be consistent, but not sure if we should go with the original or revised titles. I'm leaning towards the original titles. CurdyKai (talk) 20:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)