Talk:Johannes Zukertort

old talk
I've moved this article back to Johannes Zukertort (which I believe was its original location) from Jan Herman Zukertort--I admit I don't know what name Zukertort was born with (it doesn't seem impossible that he was born Jan, but came to use Joahnnes in later life), but I'm pretty sure that he is today more often called "Johannes" (or even "Johann") that he is "Jan". If somebody knows that he was, in fact, born "Jan", then that's probably worth mentioning in the article, but, following Naming conventions (common names), the article should in any case remain at "Johannes". --Camembert

Zukertort Opening
Was the above captioned opening named for Johannes Zukertort, and if so, why did it come to be called so ?

Joe Gatt 08:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

"The Oxford Companion to Chess" by David Hooper & Kenneth Whyld states the Zukertort Opening (1.Nf3) "...abhorred by Ruy Lopez, used by Zukertort always as a preliminary to 2.d4, now the fourth most popular opening move after 1.e4, 1.d4 and 1.c4" (p. 388) There is also a Zukertort Defense, a variation of the Vienna Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 ef4 4.d4 Qh4+ 5.Ke2 d5 (IBID, p 396). "After 6.ed5 Bg4+ 7.Nf3 0-0 sacrificing a piece for counterattack" (IBID p. 388)NimzoRoy (talk) 15:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Wrong date?
Quotation from the main article on 22/5/08 follws:- 'Poor health and lack of physical stamina appeared to be one of Zukertort's two long-term weaknesses: some commentators attributed to illness the severity of his defeat in the 1972 match against Steinitz;[9] in the 1883 London tournament he won 22 of his first 23 games, enough to give him an uncatchable lead, but lost his last 3 games;'  IN THE SECOND LINE THERE IS THE DATE 1972  - COULD THIS BE WRONG? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.238.74 (talk) 20:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course not, he's one of the chess immortals! Seriously, thanks for spotting the error. -- Philcha (talk) 10:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Jewish?
The article speaks of Zuckertort's Jewish origins:

Johannes Hermann Zukertort (7 September 1842 – 20 June 1888) was a leading chess master of German-Polish-Jewish origin.

But his grave at Brompton Cemetery is marked by a cross. What's the truth? Abenr (talk) 14:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * According to this Wikipedia article, he was born to a Jewish father who became a Christian, and a non-Jewish mother. That would have made Zukertort non-Jewish. Old reference books I see state that his father was "Prussian", and his mother Polish, without saying that his father was Jewish. Are we sure even that part is accurate? All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 15:24, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know. According to Chess and Jews by Edward Winter, there is some disagreement whether Zukertort's father was Jewish. Quale (talk) 02:52, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Zukertort’s death
For your information : a note from Edward Winter (chess historian) about this article. I'm not fluent enough in english to correct the article. --En passant (talk) 14:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. Yes, of course we would always rather quote prime sources that contain no errors in the background reading. The Jimmy Adams 1989 book on Zukertort is currently available for just under £2000 on Amazon UK, so I'll order a copy straight away! But seriously, if Mr Winter really cared that much, he could correct the article himself in a heartbeat. Sadly, expending twice the effort in broadcasting these inexactitudes is far more his style. Mind you, we'd probably all feel a bit smug if we had a library like his. Brittle heaven (talk) 11:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Place of Birth
He was probably born in Lublin, but some places say he was born in Riga, Latvia. ''It has been commonly believed that the late Johann Hermann Zukertort was born in the town of Riga on the 7th September, 1842, but it is now stated on the authority of Herr E. Schallopp, who gets his information from Herr Adolf Zukertort, a stenographer in Berlin and a brother of J. H. Zukertort, that the real birthplace of the great Chess player was Lublin, a small town in Russian Poland. The year of his birth is undoubtedly 1842, but whether the 7th of September was his actual natal day is not quite so certain, but probabilities point that it was.'' Source: International Chess Magazine, August 1888, p227 Alanobrien (talk) 08:32, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

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Other achievements
These seem to circulate intact across several older biographies but without much further elaboration. At least "linguist" appears to be by now outdated — he is only ever credited by studying several languages but not researching anything; i.e. he might be today better called a polyglot. Others could have similar problems: e.g. was he a musician in any performing sense or merely by knowing how to play some number of instruments? -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 00:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Zuckertort preferred 1.c4 and 1.Nf3?
The 'Style of Play' section currently says that, unusually amongst attacking players, Zuckertort preferred 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 to other first moves. However, reference to the ChessTempo.com database shows that Zuckertort played 335 games starting 1.e4 vs 17 games starting 1.c4 and 7 games starting 1.Nf3. While those figures include games where Zuckertort was Black as well as ones where he was White, clearly he was typical of players of his era in playing 1.e4 on the great majority of occasions and did not 'prefer openings such as 1.c4 and 1.Nf3'. I suggest that this be altered to say that 'In an age where the majority of players played exclusively 1.e4, Zuckertort was an occasional early experimenter with openings such as 1.Nf3 (The Zuckertort Opening) and 1.c4'. Or words to that effect.

Any thoughts? Axad12 (talk) 19:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Now altered as above. Databases are sometimes incomplete and can be fallible when used as definitive references on players' opening repertoires. However, in the case in point, it is self-evident that Zuckertort did not prefer 'openings such as 1.c4 and 1.Nf3'. The best that can be said is that he used them occasionally.
 * Presumably the deleted claim was based on the idea that because an opening is named after a player, that player must have played it very often - but sometimes (as here) that is not correct. Axad12 (talk) 06:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)