Talk:John Muir

Draft Dodger...
Muir certainly accomplished many great things, which are duely mentioned in this article. I think also worth mentioning iss the fact that he fled to Canada during the US Civil War in order to avoid being drafted. --74.195.63.121 (talk) 05:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you add a source for that? --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 07:41, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's a cite for the opposite: Muir stayed and nursed and ministered to troops billeted in Madison whilst at University and after waited out the draft calls in his home township before finally leaving on 1 Mar 1864. Quotes from “The Heart of John Muir’s World”, Millie Stanley, Wisconsin, 1995. Referring to 1863, Muir wrote: “A draft was being made just when I should have been starting for Ann Arbor, which kept me at home”. And later in Stanley’s words refering to the Spring of '64: ‘Still not drafted into the union army by the Town of Buffalo’ Muir left. 86.167.67.203 (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think the words 'fled' or 'draft dodger' are quite appropriate. Muir was a brave man, but was also a pacifist Christian. As a relatively recent immigrant into the US, he may also have felt that he had no personal stake in the matter. His brother Daniel had gone to Canada in 1863 (to avoid the draft), and in any case John Muir may have planned to go there long before the Civil war started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:34F0:C300:21C:B3FF:FEC6:12F7 (talk) 23:37, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

According to p. 136 of the "Bruce Beckons", he went to Canada only after he learned his number had not come up. SabaBPC (talk) 18:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Winnebago natives stole Muir's favorite horse off the family farm.
The article as it stands states that the Indians 'stole his favorite horse.' This implies that John Muir owned a number of horses at the time. In truth he was a young boy on the family farm - where he had a particular affinity with the farm animals - but he did not own them as such. I have added 'boyhood' (as adjective) and: 'off the family farm' - in order to make clear that the horse was not John Muir's at the time but belonged on paper to his father Daniel. "We turned them out one day into the pasture, and an Indian, hiding in the brush that had sprung up after the grass fires had been kept out, managed to catch Nob, tied a rope to her jaw for a bridle, rode her to Green Lake, about thirty or forty miles away, and tried to sell her for fifteen dollars. All our hearts were sore, as if one of the family had been lost. We hunted everywhere and could not at first imagine what had become of her. We discovered her track where the fence was broken down, and, following it for a few miles, made sure the track was Nob's; and a neighbor told us he had seen an Indian riding fast through the woods on a horse that looked like Nob. But we could find no farther trace of her until a month or two after she was lost, and we had given up hope of ever seeing her again. Then we learned that she had been taken from an Indian by a farmer at Green Lake because he saw that she had been shod and had worked in harness. So when the Indian tried to sell her the farmer said: "You are a thief. That is a white man's horse. You stole her."

"No," said the Indian, "I brought her from Prairie du Chien and she has always been mine."

The man, pointing to her feet and the marks of the harness, said: "You are lying. I will take that horse away from you and put her in my pasture, and if you come near it I will set the dogs on you." Then he advertised her. One of our neighbors happened to see the advertisement and brought us the glad news, and great was our rejoicing when father brought her home. That Indian must have treated her with terrible cruelty, for when I was riding her through the pasture several years afterward, looking for another horse that we wanted to catch, as we approached the place where she had been captured she stood stock still gazing through the bushes, fearing the Indian might still be hiding there ready to spring; and she was so excited that she trembled, and her heartbeats were so loud that I could hear them distinctly as I sat on her back, boomp, boomp, boomp, like the drumming of a partridge. So vividly had she remembered her terrible experiences." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:34F0:C300:21C:B3FF:FEC6:12F7 (talk) 05:06, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think this reads better and is sufficiently clear. Rivertorch FIREWATER  08:14, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * plainly you want misleading and ambiguous information on Wikpedia. So be it. Against stupidity the gods themselves rage in vain. I am no vandal - simply someone trying to augment and make as clear as possible the situation. Obviously you have some proprietary and fanatic obsession with having the inferior version. Fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.214.31.17 (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I suppose you're the same person as was editing behind the earlier IP. If so, I was careful to retain those changes you'd made that I viewed as positive. I never implied that you were a vandal, but I admit I don't believe you're a god. Gods don't change direct quotes or use punctuation at odds with the Manual of Style, and they're usually pretty good at things like indenting and signing their posts. If you'd care to climb down from your perch in Valhalla and lose the attitude, you'd find that I'm always entirely willing to discuss the merits of my edits or anyone else's. Rivertorch FIREWATER  04:51, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * nobilis non tenetur procumbens, I'm afraid. Stick with your obfuscatory nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:34f0:c300:21c:b3ff:fec6:12f7 (talk) 09:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

John Muir Campus
There are hundreds of schools named after John Muir. Just a few examples:
 * John Muir College
 * John Muir High School
 * John Muir Charter Schools
 * John Muir Middle School, Burbank
 * John Muir Middle School, Corcoran
 * John Muir Middle School, Los Angeles
 * Muirlands Middle School, San Diego
 * John Muir Middle School, San Jose
 * John Muir Middle School, San Leandro
 * Muir Elementary School, Fresno
 * John Muir Elementary School, Glendale
 * Muir Academy, Long Beach
 * Muir Elementary School, Merced
 * Muir Elementary School, Modesto
 * Muir Fundamental Elementary School, Santa Ana* John Muir Elementary School, San Bruno
 * John Muir Magnet School, San Diego
 * John Muir Elementary School, San Francisco

And that's just in California!

Makes the inclusion of John Muir Campus seem a bit undue, don't you think? As indicated previously, the list of places named after Muir is meant to be representative, not exhaustive. 32.218.32.56 (talk) 17:11, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree. I left a relevant comment at User talk:2A00:23C1:5384:B400:2D12:8217:6068:DDB4 since you all are (inexplicably) discussing this there, too. Rivertorch FIREWATER  17:24, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * And now their IP has changed and you're edit warring. Brilliant. Please seek consensus first. Rivertorch FIREWATER  17:47, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The naming of a school campus at an education establishment which is the direct successor to that attended by Muir himself carries far more weight and relevance with regard to any connections to Muir than, for example, John Muir College.


 * "The Grammar School taught English grammar and literature, French, Latin, and the Classics as well as geography, arithmetic and science. John went to this school, where the master was David Lyon. Lyon’s discipline was brutal and direct. The school dated from at least 1564 and continues today". (https://www.jmbt.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/3_04.pdf) Dunbar Grammar School in its present form is a 'secondary' or 'high' school: (https://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/directory_record/253796/dunbar_grammar_school


 * The Education (Scotland) Act 1872 resulted in the introduction of 'primary' schools, including Dunbar Primary School, to provide compulsory education for children aged 5-13. Older and academically capable children went on to be taught in the 'secondary' schools, including Dunbar Grammar School.


 * For those not familiar with the education system in Scotland:


 * ''When do children start primary? Pupils usually start primary school at age five, although there are some younger pupils. They attend primary school for seven years.


 * ''When do children start high school? Pupils are usually 11 or 12 when they start high school.


 * When do they leave? Pupils can leave school after turning 16. This is usually after fourth year. However, many children choose to stay on to complete fifth and sixth year. (http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Education/Schools/FAQs)


 * Dunbar Primary School is therefore the successor school for younger pupils who would previously have attended Dunbar Grammar School, where Muir was a pupil.


 * I am astonished to think that editors here are of the opinion that the school in Muir's birthplace, responsible for educating the children of Dunbar up to and including those of the same age which Muir had attained when he left his home town, and which bears his name on one of two sites over which the school is located, is unworthy of mention in a list which includes establishments with no connection to Muir other than a whimsical claim to subscribe to his philosophy.2A00:23C1:5384:B400:9DC7:C0F:5F0E:EB50 (talk) 18:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Ignoring the 90% of your comment that isn't completely off-topic, it's still clear that you don't understand how Wikipedia works. What gets included in an article and how is not just a matter of personal opinion. There are guidelines for just about everything, including lists. The guidelines for lists state that there should be inclusion criteria for any list. In the absence of such written criteria, the usual rule of thumb is that only "notable" entities should be included in a list, "notable" being an entity with a Wikipedia article. Looking at the Tributes and honors section of this article, I see that all of the members of the list in that section either have their own articles or are a component of an entity that has an article, EXCEPT John Muir Campus. Not notable = not included. If you look at the history of the article, you'll see that the list has been trimmed, at least once in the past, to conform to that standard. As to your contention that "Dunbar Primary School is therefore the successor school" to Dunbar Grammar School, which Muir attended, all you've demonstrated is your original research on the topic. You need to provide a reliable secondary source for that assertion. 32.218.152.226 (talk) 18:57, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Did you even look at the links above? Or were they too "off topic" to get your head around? If you'd bothered, you'd understand how the Dunbar Grammar School attended by Muir evolved into the present Dunbar Grammar School and Dunbar Primary School, and how the policies of the 1872 Act resulted in segregation on the basis of age of pupils into primary and secondary schools. Therefore, had Muir been born in 1868 as opposed to 1838, he would have attended Dunbar Primary School before emigrating to the USA at age 11. "Original research"? You're having a laugh my friend.2A00:23C1:5384:B400:7D30:5258:8CC1:2668 (talk) 20:44, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Did you even read WP:OR? What you've described is a textbook case of original research, by Wikipedia standards, my friend. 32.218.152.240 (talk) 21:35, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't hear any laughter. Two different editors are disputing the content you're adding. Edit warring is strictly prohibited and consensus is required. Quoting myself (from the talk page of your former IP, where discussion had somehow ended up): "if there is indeed a compelling reason to mention the campus of the school, such as its being a "direct successor" to one Muir attended, you'd need to indicate that and cite a reliable source (preferably a secondary source). Otherwise, it looks random and trivial." This is not optional; it is the way Wikipedia works—period. I'm assuming that you'll begin editing collaboratively and you don't need to be blocked and no protection is needed on the article. Please read WP:BRD for best practice, then come back and discuss. (A self-revert would be nice, too, of course.) Rivertorch FIREWATER  21:42, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * https://muirbirthplacefriends.org.uk/2012/02/dunbar-primary-school/ Original? 2A00:23C1:5384:B400:64DD:E14F:8FD:2708 (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Well, finally, you come up with a secondary source! The rest of what you cited remains original research. Hopefully you understand the difference now. 32.218.41.201 (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Original? 2A00:23C1:5384:B400:80E1:2925:90FC:D1B8 (talk) 18:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Original? 2A00:23C1:5384:B400:80E1:2925:90FC:D1B8 (talk) 18:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Original? 2A00:23C1:5384:B400:80E1:2925:90FC:D1B8 (talk) 18:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Original? 2A00:23C1:5384:B400:80E1:2925:90FC:D1B8 (talk) 18:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Original? 2A00:23C1:5384:B400:80E1:2925:90FC:D1B8 (talk) 18:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes it was, but now you've provided sources. Thanks! If you need help adding citations, see Help:Referencing for beginners or you can ask at the Teahouse. Rivertorch FIREWATER  03:21, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Link 68 (about Muir's grandson) is defunct
Not sure how one deals with this in Wiki, just noting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mssgill (talk • contribs) 23:06, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * thanks for pointing that out, I fixed it. Luckily the reference had enough detail to find the source. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Inventor
The Story of My Boyhood and Youth, Chapter VIII The World and The University, "MORE INVENTIONS" Muir invented clocks, barometers, time triggered firestarters, etc. I'm surprised that isn't mentioned in the Wiki page. --Darius07 (talk) 01:26, 22 May 2019 (UTC)Darius07

Yes in The Bruce Beckons, at p. 141, there's a description of his many inventions, including an alarm clock, which dumped him out of bed when it was time to wake up. SabaBPC (talk) 18:45, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2019
In "External Links" John Muir Papers. Provides an overview of the John Muir Papers and related collections held at the University of the Pacific. The link is broken and redirects to the main page of the Library website. It should go to this URL: https://www.pacific.edu/university-libraries/find/holt-atherton-special-collections/john-muir-papers.html Cheermio (talk) 21:05, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Thanks! NiciVampire<b style="color:black">Heart</b> 21:43, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 January 2020
I live on John Muir Highway Barren County KY Request that info about his travel to Mammoth Cave and along this road be cited.

https://muirsouthtrek150.weebly.com/ky-part-iv.html 64.130.186.98 (talk) 00:34, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * ❌. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 04:38, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2020
Change Cedar Keys to Cedar Key. The name is not plural. 216.243.52.49 (talk) 19:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅, Cedar Key indeed looks to be the city where Muir arrived (Cedar Keys the island cluster near the mainland). --  S. Hinakawa  (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2020
Hello,

Please, under the "Occupation" section of the John Muir Wikipedia page, consider adding all of "millworker" "racist" and "eugenicist" to the commma-separated list. Based on my research, Muir did not receive money or in-kind contributions for all of the things that are currently listed in this section (Farmer, inventor, naturalist, philosopher, writer, botanist, zoologist, geologist). In fact, during some of his most "productive" years in Yosemite, Muir was "unmarried, often unemployed, with no prospects for a career, and had "periods of anguish,"" (see WIkipedia page, "John Muir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir). Please, consider adding these three things I have listed or consider doing the appropriate research to inform and edit what is included under John Muir's "occupation" and therefore how his legacy is defined.

I love John Muir. I have quoted him all of my life. However, I take time to read about all of the things he supported and did in addition so conservation, and it seems most appropriate for his Wikipedia to reflect these things.

Thank you, Luke CorbiesVT272 (talk) 04:34, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Please also read WP:OR. I've also removed your email address from your message. <b style="background:#304747;color:#BED6D6"> Seagull123 </b><b style="color:#304747"> Φ </b> 09:37, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Connection to Canada and Ontario
I was hoping to connect this page to a page about the Niagara Escarpment and Muir's connection to the Trout's Hollow lands, which are now conserved in his name - all the roads surrounding the property bear his name. I suspect Muir was the very first geologist to suggest the Canadian Shield was once covered in glaciers. Here are some paragraphs I was working on - all but the last paragraph is summarized from The Bruce Beckons by William Sherwood Fox (first publish 1952, re-published 1962, University of Toronto Press):

In his 20s, John Muir travelled to Ontario to collect botanical specimens - or as he described it - to "go away on a glorious botanical and geological excursion", which was to last over 50 years. Muir was typically reticent about this period of his life, possibly to avoid the imputation that he fled to Canada to avoid service in the American Civil War. In fact, Muir only left for Canada after he received word that his name had not been drawn for service.

During his time in Ontario, he experienced one of the two "supreme moments" of his life. One was meeting Ralph Waldo Emerson in 1871. The first was finding a Calypso orchid, blooming alone in a Canadian swamp. That swamp was on the Bruce Peninsula, near Meaford, Ontario, where Muir lived and worked between 1864 and 1866. William Trout employed Muir at his rake factory, where Muir became lifelong friends with William Trout's son, Peter Trout.

Muir worked tirelessly at the Trout Hollow Mill, to improve its manufacturing equipment. He impressed the family greatly by innovating a great many mechanical devices. When he was not working, he felt the pull of the wild and often ventured south to hunt plants and study rocks in the summer months. In the winter months, he compiled his research on botany and geology, and became one of the first naturalists to posit that the Niagara Escarpment had previously been covered in glaciers.

Towards the end of his time in Canada, Muir became a co-venturer with the Trout family, working "with a furious energy" to double factory output, manufacturing 30,000 broom handles by February 1866. Sadly, on March 1, 1866, a fire at the mill destroyed everything but a wagon and some horses. Except for some drawings and specimens he sent home, Muir's collection of plants was lost. Though the loss was to both parties, Muir's friends paid him a sum to begin a new chapter in Indianapolis.

Muir's stomping ground around Trout's Hollow remains a nature reserve today. Surrounded by streets that bear his name, the land has now been acquired by Escarpment Biosphere Conservancy, a charitable land trust, preserving the land as wilderness in perpetuity, forever.

[this transaction to EBC is yet to close in February] — Preceding unsigned comment added by SabaBPC (talk • contribs) 19:01, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

John Muir Trail in Yosemite Valley
John Muir Trail in Yosemite Valley should be mentioned and illustrated in the article.

Indeed, John Muir Trail is essential part of Muir's legacy.

Added own HD image of John Muir Trail to illustrate Muir's legacy and his love of wild nature.

Enjoy the beauty of John Muir Trail in Yosemite Valley.

With respect to all wikipedia users,

Steve shelok  honov  21:02, 3 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I removed this image. A picture of some rocks and water does not improve the article. MrOllie (talk) 21:24, 3 July 2022 (UTC)