Talk:John W. Woolley

Woolley's predecessor
The consensus among the early Mormon fundamentalists (and a significant number of fundamentalists today) was that John W. Woolley was preceded as President of the Priesthood by Wilford Woodruff. See, for instance, Truth magazine, vol. 9, no. 3 (Aug. 1943), p. 75: "the keys to Priesthood passed in natural order from Wilford Woodruff to John W. Woolley." This was indicated by Lorin C. Woolley in Joseph W. Musser's Book of Remembrance, p. 15: "Six have held Keys to the Kingdom: Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, John W. Woolley and now Lorin C. Woolley." Also note Benjamin G. Bistline's statement in Colorado City Polygamists (Agreka Books, 2004), p. 107: "In the 1950s Guy Musser had put together a collection of ten photographs depicting the Presidents of Priesthood according to the Polygamist's teachings: Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, John Woolley, Lorin Woolley, Leslie Broadbent, John Y. Barlow, Joseph Musser, and Charles Zitting. All devout Polygamists purchased a set of these photographs and proudly displayed them on their living room walls."

While nearly all fundamentalists would certainly agree that John W. Woolley got his commission to perpetuate plural marriage from John Taylor, the belief that Woolley immediately succeeded Taylor as Prophet is, I believe, unique to the FLDS Church. Wilford Woodruff was written out of the FLDS line of succession when his 1880 revelation (declaring that all the apostles hold the keys of the Priesthood in common) was decanonized in favor of Leroy S. Johnson's One Man Rule, and to foster an image of prophetic infallibility. Warren Jeffs articulated the present FLDS position as follows: "The Lord saw what Wilford Woodruff and the Church leaders would do, so He had John Taylor appoint, ordain and appoint John W. Woolley as the next Keyholder. It had to be done in secret. . . . The whole Mormon church lost sight of the Keyholder" (Private Priesthood Record of President Jeffs, April 2003 to May 2003, p. 7). And again: "In September of 1886, there was that secret eight hour meeting. There was already a quorum of Twelve Apostles ordained, and yet, the Prophet Joseph stood by assisting while John Taylor ordained five men to the Apostleship. And he appointed John W. Woolley to be the next Keyholder, ahead of all those other Apostles already ordained" (Private Priesthood Record of President Jeffs, p. 121). And finally, via revelation: "I called my servant John W. Woolley to be my holy and authorized Keyholder of all the sealing keys and powers of Priesthood after I took my servant John Taylor from the earth in his passing unto the spirit world, to await his resurrection" (Jesus Christ Message to All Nations, p. 729).

The AUB's position on this subject seems to have alternated a bit over the years, and a variety of opinions on prophetic succession may exist in that organization. Nevertheless, I think the following 1966 statement from Rulon C. Allred is representative: "It has been said by some and quoted as doctrinal, and reference made in the Truth magazine itself on a number of occasions, that President Wilford Woodruff, at the time he signed the Manifesto, surrendered his position as President of the Priesthood and gave that honor and responsibility to someone else. This is not true. . . . President Woodruff had members in the Council of the Twelve whom he set apart to keep this principle alive after the signing of the Manifesto. He did this as President of the Priesthood and as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. . . . President Wilford Woodruff signed the Manifesto because God permitted it and because the majority of the Church demanded it. . . . Now, when they took this position, it became necessary for the Presidents of the Priesthood, including Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith, to say one thing to the public and another to the faithful" (Gilbert A. Fulton, ed., Gems, pp. 3-5).

In summary, depending on which group you ask, John W. Woolley's predecessor as President of the Priesthood/senior member of the Council of Friends was either John Taylor (FLDS Church), Joseph F. Smith (AUB), or Wilford Woodruff (most others). --Worthington56 (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You have cited no WP:Verifiability sources for your claims, the page has. Wikipedia is Not Truth. The cited sources are WP:Verifiability since they are "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."
 * Let assume you are correct, with I'm not convinces you are since most Woolley Fundamentalist don't consider Wilford Woodruff the head as you claim. The fact that the ABU claim Joseph F. Smith or the FLDS claim John Taylor (FLDS Church) isn't WP:Verifiability. The are Primary source.  Brian C. Hales and other academic are is a secondary source.
 * For example the LDS Church claims to be the same and only sect that Joseph F. Smith founded and originally name the Church of Christ. However, here on Wikipedia we us verifiabe primary source even over the claims of the people were talking about as they have a conflict of interest.
 * The academic consensus is that Woolley, not the ABU, FDS or others, claimed authority from the 1886 Revelation on plural marriage he claims came from LDS Church President John Taylor. See:
 * However, I think you may be confusing a unique aspect of the "Mormon Fundamentalist" movement’s organization often called the "PRIESTHOOD" and the "CHURCH", prior to the official formation of the FLDS and ABU sects. If you go [here] it might help.  The Woolley Fundamentalists, which the FLDS and ABU were part of originally, they believe that there authority come from a distinct organization "The Priesthood" which is independent of the also distinct organization "The Church".  Woolley claimed that he was the head of the "Priesthood", as Senior Member of the Priesthood Council, but John Taylor remained the head of "The Church" (The LDS Church), a President of the Church.  The valorous Woolley Fundamentalist sects to not agree when the LDS Church lost it's authority as President of the Church.  What is then Wilford Woodruff issues the 1890 Manifesto stopping polygamy, or Joseph F. Smith when he issues the Second Manifesto (1904).  This is why they are "Disputed Leaders" among Fundamentalist.  However at no point were Wilford Woodruff or Joseph F. Smith ever considered being in or part of the "Priesthood Council" as John Taylor gave that authority to Woolley before his death.  The "Six have held Keys to the Kingdom" you qouted is the Keys to the "CHURCH" not the "Priesthood.
 * So in short, the 1886 revelation is the primary documents used by the Woolley Fundamentalist to justify their Coucil of Friends, so that is where the S-box should stay.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * However, I think you may be confusing a unique aspect of the "Mormon Fundamentalist" movement’s organization often called the "PRIESTHOOD" and the "CHURCH", prior to the official formation of the FLDS and ABU sects. If you go [here] it might help.  The Woolley Fundamentalists, which the FLDS and ABU were part of originally, they believe that there authority come from a distinct organization "The Priesthood" which is independent of the also distinct organization "The Church".  Woolley claimed that he was the head of the "Priesthood", as Senior Member of the Priesthood Council, but John Taylor remained the head of "The Church" (The LDS Church), a President of the Church.  The valorous Woolley Fundamentalist sects to not agree when the LDS Church lost it's authority as President of the Church.  What is then Wilford Woodruff issues the 1890 Manifesto stopping polygamy, or Joseph F. Smith when he issues the Second Manifesto (1904).  This is why they are "Disputed Leaders" among Fundamentalist.  However at no point were Wilford Woodruff or Joseph F. Smith ever considered being in or part of the "Priesthood Council" as John Taylor gave that authority to Woolley before his death.  The "Six have held Keys to the Kingdom" you qouted is the Keys to the "CHURCH" not the "Priesthood.
 * So in short, the 1886 revelation is the primary documents used by the Woolley Fundamentalist to justify their Coucil of Friends, so that is where the S-box should stay.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm very familiar with the Woolleyite distinction between "the Church" and "the Priesthood" (and a third organization, the Kingdom of God). I maintain my original position, although I acknowledge that the sources I cited were inadequate. Most of my claims are corroborated by Brian Hales' website. See here, especially. There is a very real disagreement within Fundamentalism over when the keys of the Priesthood left the Church. Hales offers seven possible explanations for the transfer, although he admits that some of his suggestions have no precedent in Fundamentalist literature. By contrast, there is no disagreement about what happened to the keys of the Presidency of the Church; all Woolleyites agree that Joseph F. Smith was the last legitimate President of the LDS Church, whether they acknowledge him as President of the Priesthood or not.


 * Lorin Woolley certainly claimed that his father's apostleship and sealing authority came through John Taylor (whether John W. Woolley ever made such a claim for himself is a matter of dispute). However, the alleged 1886 ordinations were never seen as an immediate transfer of Taylor's prophetic authority to Woolley. There were several "High Priest Apostles" who were purportedly senior to Woolley, including Wilford Woodruff. (Despite your statement to the contrary, both Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith were believed to have been members of the Priesthood Council by early Fundamentalists. Note Brian Hales' chart entitled "Council of Seven Friends Membership" on the page linked above. Per Hales, Lorin Woolley named the members of the Priesthood Council in 1886 as follows: John Taylor, John W. Woolley, Lorin C. Woolley, Joseph F. Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Charles H. Wilcken, and John Smith. Joseph F. Smith was allegedly ordained a member of the Council shortly before Taylor's death. Hales writes: "A common Mormon fundamentalist belief is that just prior to John Taylor's death, Joseph F. Smith was summoned from Hawaii and ordained as a member of the Council of Friends at that time." Smith's ordination would have brought the Priesthood Council's membership up to its requisite seven, including President Taylor and the five men ordained on September 27.) Hales cites numerous examples of the early Fundamentalist belief, propagated by the Woolleys, that Wilford Woodruff was President of the Priesthood in addition to President of the Church, at least before issuing the Manifesto (see footnote 83).


 * The Woolleys may have claimed their apostleship through John Taylor, but that claim does not make them Taylor's immediate successors as Presidents of the Priesthood in the Fundamentalist ecclesiology, any more than Lorenzo Snow's ordination by Brigham Young made him Young's immediate successor as President of the LDS Church. The issue of apostolic seniority is central to both mainstream and fundamentalist Mormon conceptions of authority, and the writings of Brian Hales alone provide a reasonably thorough examination of the different views on the subject among Fundamentalist sects. --Worthington56 (talk) 03:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

John Taylor
The infobox links to John Taylor, which is a DAB page. I presume that it should link to John Taylor (Mormon), who is linked elsewhere in the article. Can someone who knows their way around Template:Latter Day Saint biography help fix this problem? Narky Blert (talk) 14:57, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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