Talk:Joseph E. Vogler

Vogler's hate-tree
The Early Life section says "He was noted for an antipathy toward aspens ...", but I seem to recall


 * Get back to us when you know for sure what you remember.

that it was birch which he detested. Birch is the ubiquitous pioneer species which 'takes over' and 'invades'. Aspen occurs only on favorable sites. I've seen documents recording that as a developer, Vogler made buyers sign aggreements not to allow birch to grow on the land, which they later ignored and/or fought in court.

I found this - http://touchngo.com/sp/html/sp-3864.htm - which states that the covenant actually applied to aspens, poplar and cottonwoods.RadioKAOS (talk) 12:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I was wrong about birch being Vogler's 'hate-tree'. A 2010 Fairbanks Miner article With big yellow splash, quaking aspens prepare to take a fall discusses the 'vendetta', and says JV wanted to restore the dominant spruce-birch forest.  He thought the aspen and poplar had invaded, after earlier fire.


 * Otoh, this hints at an ecological, environmental motive (!). Otoh, 1,000 generations of woodsworkers have known that aspen comes 'forever' from the shared root-network ... while JV struggled unsuccessfully to suppress the notoriously irrepressible suckers on his own land.  Oops.  That appeared to be the 'straw', for the AK Supreme Court.


 * Another hint is that JV stipulated both poplar and cottonwood like they are different plants, when afaik these are just 2 names for the same species.


 * Historically & generally, folks have favored the aspen & cottonwood, and evidently some earlier writers thought it must have gotten garbled ('protect birch; kill aspen/poplar - no way!'), and reversed the facts on Vogler's tree-control.


 * Today, birch is officially favored over spruce to help protect towns & homes from forest fire. This may obscure some of the former general hostility toward weedy birch. Ted Clayton (talk) 01:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Previous discussions without headers
I've corrected the date of death for Joe Vogler, which originally stated "October 1994." My wife and I learned in the spring of that year, and the first copy I ever saw of the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner had Manfried West's capture plastered on the front page, including his confession (IIRC) during the initial standoff that he had killed Vogler. It took some time after that before Vogler's body was found, and come to think of it that probably was in October 1994. I attended the memorial service for Vogler at the Sacred Heart Cathedral in Fairbanks (right around the corner from where I lived at the time).

My memory for the details in the Vogler case is sketchy after all these years. I seem to recall that West was having trouble remembering where he'd hid the body, which would be why it took so long to find it. He claimed self-defense but I believe was ultimately convicted of murder. 24.178.126.182 21:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Not One Mention of Palin
There isn't one mention of Palin in this article, outside of a footnote. Incredible. Meanwhile the Bill Ayers Wikipedia article has extensive text detailing Obama's (supposed) ties to Ayers (and there's even more detailed info in the separate Wiki article on this). If Ayers is a "terrorist," then clearly Vogler was a terrorist, as well. And if Wikipedia can extensively and thoroughly document Obama's ties to Ayers, then why can't we have at least SOME details about the Palins' extensive ties to Vogler's party?
 * You're quite a hump, aren't you? What did Vogler blow up?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.201 (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Vogler was well-known for a long series of essentially "Mexican standoffs", which weren't very focused on being nice. Hopefully, if you're reading this, you should be familiar enough with Vogler to where you already know that.  However, if the aim of this continuing thread is to demonstrate that people are STILL trying to dig up a connection to Sarah Palin, I have but one simple question: WHY???  There is plenty still which can be written about Joe Vogler without including gratuitous references to modern-day media celebrities.  Why don't you spend your time on that instead?  That two-by-four you're using looks very worn out after such extensive physical contact with the dead horse in question.RadioKAOS (talk) 03:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Re: Not One Mention of Palin
Sarah Palin never met Joe Vogler since Joe was killed in 1993, more than 15 years ago. The Palins have no legitimate connection to Joe Vogler, which should answer your question. While it may be politically convenient for you to try to paint Joe Vogler as a terrorist, it simply is a uninformed, false statement when comparing him to Bill Ayers. Joe Vogler lived for 80 years, used the courts and ballots to make his political points, and never terrorized anyone by planting bombs and planning more bombings. He did have a big mouth, but that was long before Sarah Palin's time. If you want some details about the Palin's ties to the AIP I'd suggest you look on the AIP entry. Their "ties" to the AIP all happened AFTER Joe Vogler was dead and was honored by the Alaskan legislature including many leading Democrats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.41.35.239 (talk) 17:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree about ties to AIP - the 1994 AIP Convention held in WASILLA shows that Wasilla people were actively involved, and she ran for City Council in 1994 how could that be coincidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.111.240 (talk) 17:42, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless of Vogler being a terrorist in the conventional sense, he is controvertial enough that if he has ties to the Palins it should be known. Did he or not? I would be interested in knowing this. Im sure many people would.

Two more items for the page, need more info
1) Vogler had an armed standoff with the feds out at his mine (Woodchopper Creek?), which I believe happened around 1983. This is a very important part of his folklore, but I must admit I'm lacking knowledge of pertinent details.


 * A page on the Land Rights site has pics of Vogler's bulldozer that he famously left abandoned on the Woodchopper trail, ca 1984. If I don't have it too garbled, this is part of the stand-off story.  I suspect other/better pics will be public domain on the Nat'l Park site.


 * I have been curious what eventually happened with this bulldozer. Presumably, they freshened it up at some point, and had it driven out.  I think the Woodchopper story can be fleshed out good.  I've seen it in other Vogler-lore.


 * The U has a trove of audio recordings, talking to people who were on the ground in this general scene, at the time. It may include Woodchopper and other Vogler material. Ted Clayton (talk) 01:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

2) Alaska attempted to hold a presidential primary in 1984, which thus far hasn't actually occurred in Alaska's history. The idea was abandoned after about a month or two.  Since I was working for a political organization at the time, I remember hearing about Vogler offering himself as a candidate in this election in order for the AIP to be represented.  Some people may find that to be hard to believe, considering his repeated use of the phrase "That goddamned America" and his views towards the federal government in general going back to the 1930s.  I'm pretty certain that Vogler never registered with the FEC as a presidential candidate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RadioKAOS (talk • contribs) 05:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Spotted in the Real Change - Palin page sources:


 * [mms://streaming.dcc.uaf.edu/jukebox/YUCH/9118-18.mp3 Audiotape of Joe Vogler interview], 1991, from the Oral History Program in the Rasmuson Library at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks


 * "YUCH" in the URL will stand for Yukon Charley stuff/people/affairs. This tape collection has a big focus on the general Land Claims upheaval, with the Central & Eastern Interior strongly represented. Ted Clayton (talk) 02:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

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