Talk:Joseph Standing

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Untitled[edit]

This is a major revision of this article. NPOV has been maintained and sources cities.

Due to lack of documentation, the claim that Joseph Standing’s middle was the same as his mother’s possible maiden name “Standing,” this entry has been removed from the article and moved to the Note section (See Note 2). I contacted the editor who originally added the reference and he did not have a valid source for the entry. Thank you, Matthew R. Lee 22:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Standing's Middle Name[edit]

Sesmith, I have found very little documentation supporting a claim that Joseph Standing's middle name was “Standing”. I removed it from the article and added an entry to the notes documenting that his mother’s (Mary Standing) maiden name may have been Standing. That her maiden name and Joseph’s middle name were both Standing, is still questionable. The only source I’ve found for this is FamilySearch.org. Unfortunately, the information in this specific collection on familysearch.org can be submitted by anyone, is not checked for accuracy, and is often unreliable.

It was for this reason that I contacted you in May. Here is our conversation from your Talk Page.

Can you provide a source for “Standing” being Joseph Standing's middle name? I’m preparing a major revision of this page and, with the exception of FamilySearch.org, I’ve found no mention of his middle name in published sources. The history for your minor edit says; middle name was "Standing" too -- Joseph Standing Standing (his mother's maiden name was also Standing.

This may be accurate but it is odd enough that it needs a source. FamilySearch.org gives him the middle initial of "S" on some entires and his middle name as "Standing" on others. Is this your source? Thank you, Matthew R. Lee 23:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I can't recall what the source was. I usually don't use familysearch.org, so I don't think I got it from there. I probably just dredged it up from the back of my mind, having read it somewhere before. I will think on it. –SESmith 23:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I’ve provided links to over a dozen contemporary online sources to support my claims and documented my sources. If you feel strongly that Joseph Standing’s middle name was also “Standing” and that it needs to be displayed predominately in the article, then please, do the work and take the time to provide a source before you add it back again. Thank you, Matthew R. Lee

Uh, it's not normal to have to provide a reference for a middle name on WP, but since you doubt: see Alice Standing (ed), History of James Standing and Mary Standing Standing and Family, (Provo, Utah: Stevenson's Genealogy Centre, 1992) p. 54. Second confirmatory source: International Genealogical Index, film 178087, p. 407. –SESmith 09:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the source! I’ve added it to the notes. Matthew R. Lee 19:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Several editors are questioning Standing as the middle name. I support the questioning. I contacted the publisher, Stevenson's Genealogy Center and they have no record of the publication sited. There is no verifiable source for standing as the middle name. Provide a verifiable source, not just a reference, and it can go back in. Matthew R. Lee 16:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Who are the other editors questioning the middle name? I recently questioned the Alice Standing book by removing it as a reference, as I can find nothing about that book anywhere, and I don't think it exists. If it does, it's at least not readily available. On the other hand, I am seeing some genealogical records that state the middle name was "Standing". Since some limited genealogical and temple ordinance records use "Standing" as a middle name, it's probably best to include it with a footnote indicating that these sources use the middle name but other sources tend to omit it or simply make no mention of a middle name. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]


I strongly recommend moving “Standing” as his middle name down to the footnote or out of the article completely.

There is no precedent for his middle name being Standing, the source referenced is not available to the public, and even if the source were available to the public verifying the source would require new research.

No precedent for middle name
Standing’s middle name is absent from his grave in Salt Lake City, Utah, the Joseph Standing Monument in Varnell, Georgia, and the Joseph Standing Building at the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah. His middle name is not included in any of the sermons given at his funeral, or in any of the dozens of newspaper accounts surrounding his mission and murder.
Source unavailable
The source listed for Standing as the middle name, ordinance records on new.familysearch.org, is not verifiable. These online records are not available to those who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Source cannot be verified
The record at new.familysearch.org (Person identifier: KWVL-1LN) gives his name from LDS Church membership records as “Joseph S Standing.” An individual contributor (unknown4470317) added the name “Joseph Standing Standing” to the record some time prior to 2007. Familysearch.org relies on the work of individual contributors and accepts all submissions as accurate. They do not request sources for verification of names or dates. Much like Wikipedia it is the result of mass collaboration.

His middle name may very well be Standing, but the only solid evidence comes down to the letter “S” on his Church membership record. "Joseph Standing Standing" is an awkward way to start an article. Especially without verification that Standing was his middle name. Can we agree to make a change? Matthew R. Lee (talk) 04:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Use of "ibid."[edit]

The use of "ibid." in a number of the citations in this article is problematic. If a citation is added in between the "ibid." citation and the one above it, the entire system is messed up. The article is not necessarily going to be permanently static, and this should be kept in mind when adding sources. –SESmith 10:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Good point. I changed the citations. Thank you, Matthew R. Lee 18:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strange slant to this article[edit]

I found this article just recently, but I have to ask, why the article is so slanted? From the facts I could gather, in this article and a couple of other sources, these missionaries were accosted by a mob. After the mob indicated their intent to run them out of town, one of the missionaries pulled a gun, and he was shot. The law did not determine any guilt for any party brought forth in court. Shouldn't this article reflect that crazy idea of 'innocent until proven guilty'? If a man is found not guilty of a crime, should wikipedia have an article slanted to indicate guilt? The article currently reads as both a propaganda piece for the LDS church and an attack piece on the citizenry of Georgia. As evidence to this claim, note that the article repeats the claim of a LDS publication that "Numerous witnesses testified for the defense, and it was widely understood that most of them were lying" Did any non-LDS publications at the time say that this large group of witnesses were lying, or is this just the opinion of one person who most definitely was less than neutral in his reporting of events? And before the accusations start, I do not live in Georgia, I am not from Georgia, and I'm actually from a very LDS community. I had never even heard of this event until today. AT2Howell (talk) 21:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably on to something here. The main problem is that the vast majority of sources about the person and the incident are pro-Standing and pro-LDS, and they fairly uniformly adopt the same sort of point of view about the issue. Perhaps we could find a more neutral source. It's a difficult issue. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I did notice that there were many, many sources taken from LDS publications. Did Georgia have a shortage of newspapers at the time, or was this event considered too mundane to write about in that area? It would be nice to have an equal number of non-LDS sources backing up the claim of an LDS source that everyone was lying. As it reads now, you're just not supposed to notice that a vast majority of the people involved backed up the accused and everyone was found not guilty with all charges completely dismissed. The tone of the article as is would lead you to believe quite the opposite occurred. As I said, when I first read the page, the slant had me expecting that, at the end of the story, parties would be found guilty and all the citizenry of north Georgia would be quite upset. When I finished the article, I found that the law found no guilt and, evidently, nobody outside of Utah found this to be an event worth noting. AT2Howell (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some non-LDS sources have been added, mostly in the new further reading section. As you see non-LDS newspapers and academics have also written about this story; the NYTs articles are a quick but interesting reading. These could easily be moved up and incorporated into the article, but after a quick review of the ones I have access to, there are no extreme differences in POV specifically about the murder, as compared with the LDS sources. —Asterisk*Splat→ 21:50, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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