Talk:Joyce Summers

Untitled
I removed the phrase "guest appearances" at the end of the article. Characters don't make guest appearances; actors do.

Normal Again?
Now, i don't know how reliable the whole speech on Buffy going to a mental Asylum was. It doesn't match Joyces' reaction in Becoming Part 1 or Bad Eggs and i won't accept "she forgot" as an answer.


 * Well, to answer that: Buffy's parents both thought that she was crazy and they thought Buffy was over-whelmed with stress and started babbling about being a slayer, her parents wanted her to quit and once she did they wrote it off as an over worked delusion and gave her some down time in a nice soft room. Once Joyce found out that Buffy wasn't lying about the delusions she was mad that Buffy was never told her or showed her proof. But yes, it does seem to convenient that Joyce would forget about Buffy's so-called "delusions" once Buffy told her the truth, but hey that's what happens when a story is written about something that happened that was never expected. I mean the first time Joyce put her in an asylum, what does Buffy expect from telling Joyce. Buffy was worried Joyce would do the same thing again and react like she did. I hoped that answered it (Non-ya 20:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC) Non-ya)
 * I thought the whole asylum thing was a hallucination, (and hinted to be real at the end), but was she ever REALLY in the institution. Wasn't it all part of the same vision?  Nerrolken (talk) 02:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

birth/death dates
In Buffy's quasi-dream in "The Weight of the World", we see Joyce's grave-stone with the dates 1958–2001. This isn't reality but I think we can take Buffy, even in her catatonia, as a reliable source on this. Is Joyce's year of birth worth mentioning here? —Tamfang (talk) 08:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The Wish
In the Season 3 episode The Wish, where it shows Sunnydale if Buffy never came, The Master tries feeding on this one girl and then offers her to Xander and Willow. I think the woman is Joyce, can anyone confirm or deny? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.181.210 (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Joyce Summers be merged into List of Buffy the Vampire Slayer characters. I think that the content in the Joyce Summers article can easily be explained in the context of List of Buffy the Vampire Slayer characters, and the subject of the article, although there are third party sources available (like at ), may not be notable enough for her own article as there is not enough information from reliable sources. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wrong talk page. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose Lists are best used as indexes to articles such as this rather than as compendia of hundreds of characters. Articles are best kept small so that they may be read easily on portable devices such as smartphones. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:46, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Article rewrite
This is a note to announce that I am rewriting this article with full sources and citations. --Moni3 (talk) 20:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It's looking good - thank you for your effort, which must have been considerable.


 * I have a question about a point of formatting though. At another article, there is some opposition to the use of quoteboxes and the nay-sayers have been pointing to WP:LONGQUOTE which states, "As a matter of style, quoteboxes should generally be avoided as they draw special attention to the opinion of one source, and present that opinion as though Wikipedia endorses it. Instead of using quoteboxes to highlight its notability, explain its importance before introducing the quote or in an introduction to the quote.".  Here, a quotebox is used to highlight a particular quotation by the actress, Kristine Sutherland.  I like this myself mainly because it breaks up the monotony of the plain text.  And the choice of quotation seems reasonable.  But a nay-sayer might complain that undue prominence is being given to this quotation.  What is your view, please?


 * Warden (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've done the first copy-edit, and think it looks pretty good. I made some corrections and removed some repetition, too. I am too tired to make another pass tonight. Hope you've got light and heat by now! --TEHodson 08:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Warden, I'm not terribly fussed with the quotebox. I understand your point that sometimes quote boxes lend too much legitimacy to one view, but it's Kristine Sutherland's view of her own role, and it states so in the quote with the "That the way I as Joyce see Buffy..." language. I would give the actors and writers more leeway in expressing their insight into the characters than others less involved with the series anyway. --Moni3 (talk) 20:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Small point, but what do the sources say?
I would like to use the word "intuitively" in that sentence about how Joyce is compensating for not having instinctively understood that something was going on with Buffy prior to be told straight out. As a mother myself, I would certainly feel that I had failed in what I would call an intuitive understanding--as my daughter's mom, I should know that something is going on, even if I can't tell exactly what. Is this the point the source is making? Can you speak to that, Moni? In any case, when you changed my wording you left out the word "not" and said Joyce was compensating for understanding Buffy, instead of the opposite. And thank you for going over what I did--I often do this work late at night when everything else is done for the day, and I'm usually tired. I think this looks pretty darn good.--TEHodson 20:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you point to the diff in the edit I made? --Moni3 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll try. Not sure if I know how! Well, you can see the difference if you look at the edit I just made. The edit summary says I want to use the word "intuitively." Oh--and can an episode be a source? Joyce's resentment of the hidden relationship with Giles is something she tells him in "Anne." (and what are "scare quotes"! I use them in the way they're considered appropriate in real-world text)--TEHodson 20:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Try going here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joyce_Summers&diff=prev&oldid=458349145. Okay, that worked, but is probably not the most elegant way to do it. --TEHodson 20:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * An episode is the lowest form of a source. You'll notice Joyce Summers article before the rewrite had only episode sources. Episodes as sources allow original research in the way of interpretation. I have at least three episode guides. Which episode do you think Joyce resented Giles' relationship with Buffy? I can see if a source says it.


 * I changed the "having failed to understand" because it's not a consistent tense with the rest of the article (although I neglected to negate the understand part). The article treats the series as present tense, even the before the revelation and after the revelation. I'd change it to "The love Joyce expresses is interpreted by scholars as an attempt to compensate for failing to understand..." --Moni3 (talk) 20:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, that's why I asked what the sources say. The discussion occurs in Anne, when Giles goes to Joyce to say he's heard a rumour that Buffy may be in Oakland. She says she blames him for Buffy's disappearance, that they had this whole relationship going on behind her back, his influence, etc. Regarding the other point, does the source say that Joyce feels she should have known something was going on? That was my point--her guilt is about not having intuited it on her own, yes? I have to get to the midwife's office, so I'll pick this up later. I made another correction, as you probably noticed.--TEHodson 20:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Source: "Joyce carries the burden of society's expectation that mothers should instinctively understand their children." which is summarized in the paragraph above the one in question. Otherwise, Buffy herself says Joyce herself should have known by empirical evidence that something was going on. Sources also state that. (Also, split infinitive in "to intuitively understand".) I also have to go home now, where I probably won't have power and I don't know when I'll be back to edit this. I'll be working on Jenny Calendar on paper in the meantime. --Moni3 (talk) 21:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I felt, intuitively (as it were) that this is what they were trying to say, just from my own mother's instinct, so I'll leave the word in, but de-split the infintive (or whatever). Take your time with this--real life issues being what they are, it hardly matters if you're burning the furniture for warmth. See you soon.--TEHodson 01:52, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok. Sorry. I wasn't clear here. This is a nuanced thing. Let me see if I can explain it. Apparently it's not well explained in the article. So parents don't get their kids, which is what the writers were trying to express through Joyce. Buffy is a mystery to Joyce. She doesn't know about Buffy's powers although she's faced with empirical evidence of them with Buffy's bruises, the fights she gets into, and her bloody clothing. She represents for viewers the social belief that mothers should intuitively understand their children, which is cited in the paragraph that starts Joyce is, according to author Lorna Jowett, a typical "teen-horror parent":. But then she is forced to face what Buffy is and does and still doesn't understand her because no one could but another Slayer. So the point the sources make is that Joyce keeps telling Buffy she loves her and supports her, and her getting involved in Buffy's life are all attempts to try to understand what Buffy's world is about. The original sentence I wrote, The love Joyce expresses is interpreted by scholars as an attempt to compensate for not understanding her daughter before she realizes Buffy is the Slayer, and following the revelation, related attempts to understand what a Slayer does is more accurate to what the sources say. If the sentence in question reiterates the point about intuition, it's redundant. I don't think the word "intuition" should appear in the sentence in question. Also, I have power and internet back. Was a cold 2 days. --Moni3 (talk) 21:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, but I am going to make one argument for keeping the word "intuitively" in, because I understand the essay to be saying that the source of Joyce's overcompensation is her failure to grasp, as a mother is "supposed to" (simply by virtue of being her mother) that something strange is going on with her kid. I understand that feeling myself, having been the mother of a teen, so that's probably why I interpret it the way I do. I would like to keep it in. I'm not going to fight about it, but I am making this one request to let it stand.

I'm very glad you're warm, dry, fed, and safe! What a mess back there.--TEHodson 23:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources and cites
Just a reminder. If facts about how many episodes Joyce was in in the 4th season or her appearances following "The Body" need to be corrected, please don't put text in front of the existing citations. It misleads readers. If you correct something, like adding the details of an episode, please do it after the existing citations. I can find the right cites for episodes and include them later. It's much more difficult to try to parse which part of the sentence belongs to which citation after the edits are made. Thanks. --Moni3 (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Ted
Moni, does nobody discuss the episode Ted? There are lots of interesting things about Joyce and her relationship with Buffy, her vulnerability to a man who seems "perfect," that are brought out in that ep. Is there nothing in any of the sources about it? Her acceptance of the fact that he turns out to be a robot is worthy of notice, I should think (it's not as though robot people are thick on the ground), not to mention that at one point it appears that her daughter has killed him. I'd have expected at least some examination of that whole incident.--TEHodson 21:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The episode guides discuss it, of course. But in the sources that address Joyce as a character and go in depth into her development, Ted is a blip. Others discuss Ted as a representation of the generational divide and the metaphor of older parent figures (especially males) as monstrous. I'm still reading, though. I just got four more books today and it will take me a while to go through each of them for as much info as I can find. --Moni3 (talk) 23:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * One of the things I find interesting about that episode is Buffy's resentment of a man in the house, one whom she perceives as dividing her from her mother, which put me in mind of "Sex and the Slayer" and Jowett's contention that the Summers house functions without needing a man. I wondered, therefore, if someone had referenced that episode and the effect on the change of the dynamic that occurs. I did break down and order the (too) expensive "Aesthetics" and also "Fight the Forces", so soon I'll be able to contribute more than just editing what you write. I am neglecting my own writing to a shocking degree right now, and am going to suffer for it. My foot is almost better and I'm much less drugged, so that's good. I'll be copy-editing soon, but right now am trying to keep up with the new Kate Bush album. I can't believe how much time I'm spending here--this can't be good.--TEHodson 23:26, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it's not good. I say that from experience.


 * One of the better things about having more than one person read the sources is that there's another filter out there to help decide what should be covered in the article. If I'm the only person who's read the sources then I'm the only one making decisions about what goes in the article, and not everything does. Everyone comes with their own notions and ideas about what's important. The sources emphasize stuff, so I try to summarize it. Other times, things seem important to me based on my own experience. I read a lot of stuff and forget a bunch of where it came from, then can't remember if that was an actual source or some fan chat board I read that thing on or even a conversation I had with friends about an episode. But it sticks in my mind as something potentially important and if a good source addresses it, more than likely it will go in. Conversely, if I haven't seen a lot of information on "Ted" or something else, I won't put it in the article. If someone else has access to sources, it can act as a counterbalance.


 * At any rate, I'm going to have to slow down in a bit. I'm broke so I have to do paintings for Christmas and I have to get started on that soon. But I'm going to continue to work on these articles. I poked around Shakespeare character articles to get a feel of how they are treated. With the amount of information written about this series, there's no reason not to treat these characters with the same seriousness Shakespearean writers do. No foolin'. --Moni3 (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You won't get any argument from me on that--there are moments when the series is positively Greek, never mind Shakespearean. By all means slow down. Now that everyone else has lost interest in the argument they were momentarily so passionate about, it's just us (and Drovethrughosts popping in now and again). I'm looking forward to reading the books--I just haven't got great wads of cash to throw at them right now and my library only has a couple of the Watcher's Diaries. I hope to bring in some new insight on the Restless article. I'm about to start making Solstice presents, too (jewelry this year, though I had thought to do a painting or two myself--how nice to know that that is what you do in real life). Talk to you soon.--TEHodson 23:45, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I edit Wikipedia and I paint. And I have a job related to neither of these activities. I stopped a couple years ago trying to decide what my occupation is. Although should the economy continue on its present course, I'll have to amend that to "hobo". --Moni3 (talk) 23:58, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Look on the bright side, darling: you'll have plenty of company under whichever bridge you choose (and no doubt they'll have Wifi, so you can continue to edit here). Things are certainly getting scary.--TEHodson 00:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Bring on the Night
I'm watching that episode, and I don't think Joyce is the First in Buffy's dreams--she's just herself. The First is with Spike at the same time, as Drusilla.--TEHodson 20:39, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok I'll recheck the sources. Btw, I heard Kristine Sutherland in an anti-depressant commercial just a two hours ago. Kind of puts a new spin on Joyce. I asked the commercial if it had to take anti-depressants because its daughter was a Slayer and kept getting suspended from school, but it didn't answer me. I put 2 and 2 together for myself. --Moni3 (talk) 21:37, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I talk to the TV, too (sometimes shout at it). But it does answer me--maybe you're doing something wrong.--TEHodson 21:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)