Talk:Judaism in association football

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The page name should be changed[edit]

This page should be called "Jews in Association Football," NOT "Judaism..." There is nothing in this article about "Judaism" whatsoever. It is an article about "Jews" and the various ways in which they participate in the sport, either as players, or as fans. I can move the page to the correct name, but I wanted to open a move request (RM), and don't know how to do that. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 15:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nope - see Islam in association football. The scope is for a wider topic. Any move will be reverted. Giant Snowman 18:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Judaism is a religion. Association Football is a sport. There is nothing absolutely between Judaism and Association Football. I looked at the Islam page, and there is a section about Ramadan. Ramadan affects players that are Muslim in their religion, it does not affect the Association Football sport. I don't think the religion of Islam has anything to say about the sport of Association Football, as I know the religion of Judaism has nothing to say about the sport itself. I think tht at least an RM (Request Move) discussion should be opened about this. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you even read the article? There's already sources about Jewish players missing games for religious holidays... Giant Snowman 19:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reason of title change.[edit]

I only just saw the above conversation so I just feel the need to explain my move of the page. I think the creator deserves as much.

While the creator of the page is correct about the religious aspects of the game and also the importance sports such as football in Jewish culture, the subject is not just about history of Jewish people in association football. The title change not only covers the religious aspects but also the involvement of Jewish people in the sport itself. It is also how Jewish history pages are titled.

Also worth noting that Judaism differs from Islam in that Judaism is an ethnoreligion and Islam is not. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This should have been discussed at WP:RM. Giant Snowman 15:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman, given your previous chat, I agree that WP:RM was the correct course. I didn't see the chat and thought it would be a non-controversial move (I have a habit of being WP:BEBOLD) aligning it with similarly named articles. If you wish to proceed with a request move, I have no qualms. Omnis Scientia (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the move and you are free to use RM if you wish. Giant Snowman 16:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman, thank you. Will do. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 19 May 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that Judaism in association football be renamed and moved to History of the Jews in association football.

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Judaism in association football → History of the Jews in association football – Will make title of the article the same as similar articles about Jewish history in a region or in a particular field (including one I recently created called "History of the Jews in baseball"). It is also more accurate as the article refers to the historical roles of Jewish people in the sport and the significance of football in the Jewish community rather than any particular religious aspect of it (Yom Kippur alone does not make it so as that holiday, due to its significance, is also observed by secular Jews, not just religious ones). Please also keep in mind that Judaism is an ethnoreligion and so should not be compared to "Islam and association football". Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 17:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - to keep in line with Homosexuality in association football, Racism in association football, Islam in association football etc. etc. Giant Snowman 18:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman, I disagree. This is about the history of Jewish people in football and its significance in the Jewish community. Its not a social issue and I've already explained about Judaism being an ethnoreligion so its not the same as treating it as "Islam and association football" or "Christianity and association football". Now if this were JUST about "Antisemitism in association football" then its a different matter but its mostly about history of Jewish people. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman, hey there. Do you mind including the discussion in WP:JH (the Jewish history WikiProject) as well? I don't know know how to. Thank you. Omnis Scientia (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Giant Snowman 17:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman, anyway I can convince you to make this in line with other articles of Jewish history? Because Jewish-related articles are either "History of the Jews...". Since this is about history of Jewish people in football rather than a social issue, it should be titled "History of the Jews in association football". Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you don't mind, I will be pinging @Warshy to get their opinion as well since they had a similar conversation with you on the matter. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I view this as a 'football' related article and should follow those conventions, rather than a 'Jewish' article. Giant Snowman 19:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its more to do with Jewishness in football, IMO, than it does with football alone. Hence the talk of Yom Kippur - which is central to the legacy of many great Jewish athletes' careers - and Jewish fan bases of Tottenham and Ajax, and so on. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the "Judaism" part of it that concerns me - it is incorrectly giving out that religious aspects of Jewishness play a large role in the sport when they do not. It is a cultural aspect, a way for Jewish communities to feel like they are a part of their country.

Also, the mention of Yom Kippur doesn't make this article religious for the simple reason that secular Jews also observe that particular holiday. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is certainly a religious aspect to it, although I fully agree it's the cultural aspect that seems to be more prevalent. Giant Snowman 20:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Jews in association football (and do the same for the baseball article), following the pattern of Jews in jazz, Jews in punk rock and Jews in the civil rights movement, which all refer to fields of activity, as well as being aspects of Jewish history. "History of the Jews in..." seems to be largely reserved for geographical locations. Ham II (talk) 17:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ham II, yes, that's a good suggestion and also a good compromise. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this sounds OK. Giant Snowman 18:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I've moved the article to Jews in baseball. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]