Talk:Jumping position

NO. Hunt seat riding does not mean "jumping position." Eventers, show jumpers, foxhunters, etc all use the jumping position. Additionally, there are certain trends in hunt seat riding (such as the use of the crest release almost exculsively) that would make this inappropriate to be merged. The only thing that connects the two is that hunt seat riders ride in 2-point around the course, which is similar to jumping position (but not exactly the same).

To put this into the hunt seat article (which is a uniquely American form of riding), would be like saying the jumping position is not used by the rest of the world. Eventer 20:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll pull the merge tags, then. I am curious though, how you view "hunt seat" as all that uniquely American, other than terminology. To me, really it seems no different from the forward seat or any of the classic sport horse seats used throughout the world. (Maybe hunt seat needs to be renamed forward seat??) At least, as I understand it, and my understanding of what the "hunt seat" is, is strongly influenced by the techniques and approach of George Morris as outlined in works like Hunter Seat Equitation, etc...of course I don't know the variations used elsewhere in the USA, but I have always felt that basically the hunt seat and the forward seat as created by Caprilli are essentially interchangable terms for the seat suitable for jumping, contrasted with the deep, long leg seat used by dressage riders. This goes to the concepts of la jineta and la brida seats that date to the middle ages...they are really the only two true classic seats...my humble opinion...but fads change... Montanabw 04:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that this article is about the position the rider uses over the fence, not between them. Using the 2-point position in hunt seat, while rather similar to the jumping position, is not the same thing. Also, by merging this into hunt seat, it would be like saying that show jumpers, eventers, foxhunters, etc dont use the jumping position over a fence.

To elaborate on hunt seat being "American": "hunter seat equitation" is pretty much non-existant elsewhere in the world, besides the US (and Canada). The rest of the world uses the "balanced seat" rather than the forward seat. Not that the forward seat is bad, it just is very limited (IMO) in its uses. For example, its not very safe if you are riding on uneven terrain. So while it serves its purposes in the show arena, and builds good basics for jumping, it is not necessarily what everyone is using to jump.

Sorry if this is poorly written and hard to understand, I'm very tiered right now. Eventer 04:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Balanced seat
I think I take a different philosophical approach here. Essentially, all seats must be a "balanced seat," depending on the job at hand, from the jockey's seat, which is a properly balanced seat for a racehorse, to, oh say a jousting knight with his "feet on the dashboard," which though weird-looking is a properly balanced seat for ramming a lance into someone else. To me, the "forward seat" as invented by Caprilli is the properly balanced seat for modern jumping, just as the deeper seat and longer stirrup of a Dressage seat that has been around since Guerinere (sp?) is proper for achieving maximum precision and control. We probably are just debating semantics here, nothing more, IMHO... I kind of think this article should go back to being named "forward seat", as I know that term is used in the UK as well as the USA, but it's also not that big of a deal to me. I have to think about all of this a bit. Maybe Culnacreann should weigh in on this, being from Ireland and all... Montanabw 22:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Stub-busting
Found the article Two-point. It's pretty short, a stub, really, I think it could be inserted here (some material is already in here), and a redirect created there. IMHO. Discuss. Montanabw 18:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Mmm. My first inclination would be to say no, jumping position and two-point are too different. My biggest objection is simply that, while I am definitely willing to be persuaded otherwise, I have never considered "two-point" to be used accurately to describe the jumping position. "Two-point" has always been more of a term for a position on the flat, for purposes such as developing rider balance, fast gaits, saving the horse's back, etc. Now, I have heard trainers yelling at their beginners to get in their two-point as they approach an X -- but this in itself is not the actual release over the jump. It's just the setup. The hands still have to give a bit, even over these itty bitty jumps. A tiny little cross rail (or trot poles, if those count) is actually the only kind of jump I think you could get away with holding a true two-point over without hitting the horse in the mouth or being left behind.

As the stub points out, two-point is thus named because the rider only has two points in contact with the horse; I would argue that since the hands often touch the crest for support in jumping that this is not always the case. I'm not absolutely certain whether "two-point" applies to where the hands are or just to the seat and legs, but quidquid, a crest release still makes for four points (two hands, two legs) of the rider in direct contact with the horse. Also, when jumping the hip angle is often (not always) closed much more drastically than when simply riding two-point.

So -- yes, I think the two are too different to justify merging. I'm not adamantly against it, however, and I'm curious as to what others have to say about the relation of two-point and jumping position. LochNessDonkey 02:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I raise it because essentially I have run across a lot of people who consider "two point" the galloping AND jumping position, the only other way to ride besides "three point", that is, sitting in the saddle. I should re-read George Morris and see what his terminology is...and wait for Eventer to weigh in on the issue, she is the goddess of the jumper stuff. Montanabw 02:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Montanabw, you make me blush ;). I agree with LockNessDonkey, two-point is usually (from my experience) what riders refer to on the flat, or approaching a jump, to distinguish it from half-seat (legs and crotch) or full-seat/three-point position on the flat. But regardless of the seat used to approach the fence, all riders use a "jumping position" over the fence, which includes (1) a release (something you obviously dont want on the flat), (2) closing of the hip angle & bringing the shoulders forward (with the exception of drop fences) and (3) the hip moving backward. It does not provide much control, as it is generally meant to give the horse freedom rather than direction, and to keep the rider out of his way. It therefore is not the best seat for riding on the flat or between fences.


 * Also, the position changes throughout the jump, from a more open (two-point) position on takeoff, to closed angles over the fence, to open angles during the landing phase. It is therefore more dynamic than the positions used on the flat. Not to say those positions are "static," but it is very different from anything you would experience on the flat.


 * So while similar, I dont think we should merge. However, I do think the two-point article should include more information about half-seat and three-point, how they differ, and when they are used, and possibly clarification on how it differs from jumping position. And maybe a new name? I dont mind adding to it, if you like. Eventer 20:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent notion, I do think there is a need to explain and differentiate between the three. Maybe do so in such a way that this article touches on it and cross=wikilinks to the two-point article.  The trick with renaming is, of course, coming up with a searchable name.  I think "forward seat" redirects to this jumping position article, doesn't it?  Would a discussion of these variations on the "forward seat" fit there?  Dunno...just thinking.  BTW, get any good photos at the Rolex? (you lucky rat, you got to go, all I got to do was watch a teeny bit on the TV)  I'll be uploading a few little misc photos I took over the weekend...not the Rolex, but perhaps a few useful illustrations. Montanabw 04:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if this is poorly written and hard to understand, I'm very tiered right now. Eventer 04:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Two-Point VS. Jumping Position
No. They are different because they do two different things and are extremely different.

I would never ride for an hour in Jumping Position, but often do in Two-Point.

In layman's terms, the Two-Point is when your NOT sitting in the saddle, but sort-of slightly up and out and leaning forward slightly, and there are two points of leg contact, which does two things: it gets your weight off the horses back, and it puts you center of gravity slightly forward relative to the horses which helps keep the horse going forward. This allows the horse to move forward without hinderance ON THE FLAT.

The Jumping Position, on the other hand,  is similar to the two-point, but it is exaggerated and very different. The rider slides their bum back to the rear of the saddle and he reaches out over or beside the horses neck (as my instructor says "GRAB HER EARS!!!!!". . . my girlfriend is looking at me funny...). in order to give the horse his head so that he can stretch out over the jump. The riders center of gravity is equal to the horses, but it is also lower relative to Two-point. The jumping position is, of course, used over jumps, and is rarely used on flat with the exception of training.

Visually, the two point looks like the rider is standing in their stirrups, whereas the jumping position looks as if the rider is collapsed onto and almost lying or wrapping around the horse. --Ronjamin 18:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I agree with your characterization of two-point and like the edits you made to the two-point article, but if you rode a novice-level jump in what you describe as jumping position, you'd be jumping ahead of the horse and probably wind up on your "bum." (grin). You can't ride that way and use a crest release, either. May work for evneter and big fences, but Equitation riders, for example, are taught to basically stay in something akin to two-point over fences, though they obviously have to flex at their joints and move a little to stay with the horse. I still think "two-point" and "jumping position" should be consolidated into a single article called "Forward seat" as one has to do both when riding forward seat and Caprilli was the founder of the style. However, I also seem to have the minority position here. Montanabw 21:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge solution
Noticed that we once had an article titled Forward seat which was redirected to jumping position. I am recommending that we merge both this article and two-point back into that article title. I make this suggestion for two reasons: 1)  Two-point is basically a stub.  2)  "Jumping position" is an integral part of the forward seat, but you don't just jump, you have to ride flat stretches too, it seems artificial to split the two, especially when two-point is about two paragraphs long -- and uses a rider who is jumping as an illustration, in spite of all the discussion here about how two-point is NOT technically "jumping position." I am willing to do the merge if there is consensus. My point is basically that these two pieces should be one article and also that, for ease of Wikipedia readers (and the credibility of Wikipedia) we need to stick to classic, worldwide terminology, and the "forward seat" is classic useage. Comments and thoughts? Montanabw 17:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I do like the idea to use the term "forward seat." But I would like to point out that two-point (butt out of saddle, only legs in contact) is not the only way to ride a jumping course. Many riders, esp those jumping the bigger fences, will drop down into 1/2-seat or even full seat should the need arise (spooky jump, or often in the case of eventers, a steep landing downhill). So, in terms of adding in 2-point into this article because thats what you ride the flat stretches in... I think that would be very misleading. I think it would be better to do an article on seats, describing the whole spectrum and when they are best used. Because you will not see a GP show jumper doing a round in 2-point the whole time. Sooo... summing it all up, I don't think its a good idea to merge the jumping position article in with 2-point or forward seat. Dressage riders will go around in a 2-point or 1/2-seat in some situations. Jumper riders will go in full seat. They are both useful in different situations, regardless of riding style. But the actual position over a fence is usually never seen unless someone is actually jumping a fence. Even when riding the capriole, the rider stays upright, rather than in a jumping position.

So my solution: keep article as is, and have a separate page detailing the full spectrum of seats, from the long-leg/upright body seen in dressage, saddle seat, and western on up to the butt-out-of-the-saddle position used by jockeys. Explain the use of each of them. Maybe talk about variations used (like the fact some riders push their foot out slightly in front for security). There are advantages and disadvantages for each of the seats, which have absolutely nothing to do with jumping. Eventer 04:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll look at some source material on how they break it out (I still actually think that "hunt seat" covers it, it's a term that encompasses far more than equitation, it is the "seat" used for hunters, jumpers, eventers, anything going over the river and through the woods in an English saddle, IMHO but that useage may be a regional thing out here in the west where generic "riding" means western and "English" could mean hunt or saddle seat), but basically, I consider the full seat, half seat, 2 point and "three point" all to simply be variations of Caprilli's "forward seat" and each is used for varying terrain, speed or obstacles.  There is really only one way to stay on a horse, and that is to acknowledge the alignment of the human skeleton with the ground, having a horse in between and a leg on each side!!! (grin)  shoulder, hip and heel must always be in alignment, that may mean the rider's body changes and joint angles open and close to keep that alignment, but the three balance points always remain in a relationship, compensating for the speed or motion involved.  Anything else and a person is just bracing themselves against the horse and is in a good position to get dumped.
 * Ever compare the frame of an eventer coming off a big fence with that of a saddle bronc rider? Check this out:  Same basic position! (non-westerners hate me when I point this out! (grin)). Eventer: http://www.horseworldexpo.com/images/Willyraddrop.jpg and a Saddle bronc rider: http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-5/saddle-bronc.jpg
 * Ditto western riders: A good roper has to take a variation on 2-point position in order to rope a cow, a good reiner or cutting horse rider or pleasure rider is essentially in the same position as a dressage rider (when they are in the proper position, anyway, plenty of bad western riders, the saddle compensates for a multitude of sins).  I think that a balanced seat is a balanced seat and good horsemanship is good horsemanship.  To me it is illogical to break out the various riding positions to the point that they sound like totally different things. There are style variations, sure, but well, I'm ranting.  Back as a kid,  I never rode western worth a damn until I learned to ride English, and I only started to win Saddle Seat classes after I learned basic dressage,  the way I sit on a horse when it is climbing a steep hill is not all that different than how I sit when I go over a jump.  Riding is riding. The horse dictates the style. It's that gravity thing.  I hear it's a law...  ;-)  Montanabw (talk) 05:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not saying that we should necessarily break the article down into "dressage seat", "hunt seat", "western seat" etc. I think we should discuss, say, differences in leg positions and what they accomplish (and faults, like the chair seat), differences in upper body position (and how it tends to move forward with speed), maybe placement of the hands, the correct placement of the seat bones in the saddle (and discuss the neutral position of the pelvis, vs the fork seat, vs tucking under with the seat bones) and how that affects the horse, etc. Maybe merging in the info on stirrup length from the stirrup article. And of course include the basic "rules" that encompass all riding, regardless of dicipline, like the fact the stirrup should almost always be perpendicular to the ground, riders eyes always up, and for English-style the straight line from bit to elbow.

As for the term "hunt seat": I would never use that to describe anything but the hunter/jumper scene. Most people I know believe that the hunt seat (I'm talking about the "ideal equitation position" that is judged at the Medal/Maclay) is quite unsuitable for cross-country riding. Actually, its a problem that many hunters-turned-eventers have when first learning how to ride XC. It places the rider too far ahead, and in a position that can actually be quite dangerous for XC riding. Not saying its a bad position. Its great when used for its purpose (i.e. going around a hunter course in a nice, level arena) and its a very pretty position that allows the horse great freedom, but it is not the position used by most eventers and foxhunters on a regular basis. I know I'm arguing semantics, but I would say that an all-encompasing word for the jumping disciplines would be better applied to "forward seat." Eventer 22:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I like Forward seat, always have. (grin) Bottom line is much of what we want to do on general riding skills should be in an article titled "Equestrianism," but Equestrianism has taken off into something else entirely.  Maybe the place to start is Equitation, I don't know.  Maybe not, the word is so tied to horse shows. Part of the problem is organizational.  Maybe we need to sort of re-think the whole "tree" of horse articles.  For example, what I did with Horse training was to write a very basic article and then from that starting point, people can do up articles that cover all the thousands of variations.  Maybe we could resurrect one of the old redirects into Equestrianism and make it into a basic riding skills article??  Montanabw (talk) 20:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

jumping position=two point, forward seat??
I've never heard the term "forward seat" used before I saw the link in two-point; I've also always heard two-point and jumping position used synonymously. Ronjamin, your description of two-point vs. jumping position sounds awkward and dirt-eating at best. ;) (This is not meant as an attack, more of a comment on the difficulty in explaining such things in text.) To me, they are essentially the same thing. Riders should always be giving with their hands based on the movement of the horse--the only difference between your position over the jump vs on the flat is the *horse's movement* and the way you allow your body to give, closing the angles. Granted, I'm no grand-prix rider, but I've been doing this a long time and I've personally never heard of two different positions. You can imagine my confusion to see two different articles, and a third without *any* information for "forward seat"! I thought maybe it was an American/midwestern thing, but I've read plenty of books written overseas and still haven't come across "forward seat." Hmm. Jett rink 16:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Some of this may in fact be regional. Where I live, we never use the term "jumping position," it's always "two point" for the seat you take over fences.  When I was teaching, any number of adult students who grew up on the east coast considered "two point" to be the "half seat."  However, the most classically correct term is actually "Forward seat," when referencing the style of riding over fences developed by Caprilli at the turn of the century.  However, the term seems to have gone out of vogue sometime in the 60s or 70s, and, based on Eventer's comments, "Hunt seat" isn't really a replacement term, either.  My favorite references to forward seat, though, are in the old Thelwell cartoons -- illustrating a small child on a fat, fuzzy and very recalcitrant pony crawling up its neck as an illustration of the "forward" seat! (grin).  I probably just need to go back to my George Morris book and see how the terminology shakes out there.  No one is going to argue with George Morris! (Or, at least, no one with any sense of self-preservation who has ever seen him in action!) (grin) My new motto:  Sourcing solves all edit wars. Montanabw 18:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Article sandbox
FYI all, per this discussion, I made a sandbox off from my user page to maybe create a whole new article on riding techniques in general. It's here: User:Montanabw/Sandbox. Dive in and help, or discuss, or whatever. Montanabw (talk) 19:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

preform - perform
✅

Most of the times preforming has been used on Wikipedia it is a typo of performing, and I suspect "when in fact he or she is slipping the reins or preforming a correct automatic release." also needs fixing. But as I know little more about horseriding than the average sack of potatoes, can someone who understands the subject make the call and fix this or confirm its already correct? Ta muchly  Were Spiel  Chequers  18:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, the only thing preformed is concrete blocks! LOL!  Go ahead and fix it, it's a typi!   Montanabw (talk) 02:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh god here we go again. Don't be so rude! Take a look at your own grammar and spelling you idiot! 2A02:C7E:39D8:1B00:C4E6:B5FF:FE75:B0CF (talk) 10:11, 23 June 2023 (UTC)