Talk:Junayd of Aydın

Untitled
Takabeg (talk) 10:49, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "Cüneyt Bey of Aydın" 0
 * 1425 Cuneyd -Llc 62 results (minimum) 36, but includes many books written in Turkish language.
 * 1425 Junayd -Llc 48 results (minimum) 33, but includes other Junayds.
 * 1425 Cuneyt -Llc 33 results (minimum) 17, but includes books written in Turkish language.
 * 1425 Juneyd -Llc 2 results


 * "Cuneyd Bey" -Llc 25, but only 5 of 25 are written in English.
 * "Cuneyd Beg" -Llc 7, but only 2 of 7 are written in English.

Unfortunately, this Turkish source can prove only its name in Modern Turkish language. Takabeg (talk) 15:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Conflict
A recent change in the article claims that Cüneyt's father was imprisoned in 1403. The claim is sourced by Doukas. But all the same, according to my sources (Yaşar Yücel-Ali Sevim) it was Cüneyt's brother Kara Subaşı Hasan and not his father who was imprisoned. I think the source should be checked. I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:51, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Nedim! What Doukas wrote was as follows. First, he names Juneid "the son of Qara-subaši", & states his father had been governor of Smyrna "in the days of Bayazid" (18.5; translated by Marguoulias on p. 101); now in a note the translator states Juneid/Cüneyt's father's name was Ibrahim Bahadur. (I omitted all of this because I had to leave something out, & this seemed too complex to include in my update. :-) The next point in Doukas' narrative where his father appears is 18.7 where Umar besieges him in the citadel of Ephesus, where he is again called "Qara-subaši" (trans. by Margoulias p. 102); his father surrenders in the autumn of that year (from Doukas' chronology, this would be 1404). Before the winter comes, Juneid/Cüneyt sails in secret to Mamlos & rescues "the prisoners" (18.7 again); the implication is that these prisoners included his father. And this is all Doukas tells us of Qara-subaši his father. Now based on the facts in the translation I have before me, either Doukas mistakenly calls Qara-subaši his father, but Juneid rescued his father from Mamlos, or he mistakes Qara-subaši for his father (instead of his brother), & rescued his brother from Mamlos. Inasmuch as Doukas appears to be informed in the affairs of this part of Anatolia (he grew up there), I am surprised that he would confuse the two. I'd be interested to see what the Turkish primary sources have to say about him; maybe they can resolve this issue. -- llywrch (talk) 17:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Name
"Cüneyt" is the modern Turkish transcription of the name Junayd. In scholarship, the forms most commonly used are:


 * "Juneyd", 10 results but including some major reference works by prominent scholars, e.g. in Colin Imber's The Ottoman Empire, 1300-1650: The Structure of Power, or Halil Inalcik's chapter in the A History of the Crusades: The Impact of the Crusades on Europe.
 * "Juneid", 14 results, of which four are relevant, including Magoulias' translation of Doukas.
 * "Junayd", about thirty results, but less than 20 are relevant; again including some major reference works like Bosworth's New Islamic Dynasties (although Bosworth inevitably prefers the Arabo-Persian forms over Turkified ones due to the scope of his work), two studies by the eminent scholar of medieval Anatolian cities, Clive Foss, and one study by Luttrell on the Hospitaller state.
 * "Djunayd", about 70 results, of which again a handful are relevant, but include Zachariadou's magisterial work on the Turkish emirates (which includes the "best and most up-to-date account of the origins and the career of Cüneyd", according to Kastritsis), and the Encyclopaedia of Islam entry. For practical purposes, this form should be considered a variant form of "Junayd".
 * "Cüneyt", about 100 results, but most of them are irrelevant. From what I could see, less than half a dozen were relevant hits, and most of them were in Turkish.
 * "Cüneyd", about 190 results, of which most are irelevant, but it includes a very substantial number of relevant studies.Most of them are in Turkish or written by Turkish scholars, but they do include two major English-language works, Finkel's Osman's Dream, and Kastritsis' The Sons of Bayezid, a dedicated study on the Ottoman Interregnum.

The evidence in the major English-language sources is clear in not using the modern Turkish orthography, and even Turkish sources tend to use "Cüneyd" rather than "Cüneyt", which AFAIK corresponds with the actual phonology in pre-modern times. Otherwise, in typical fashion, the use of the Perso-Arabic vs the Turkish form reflects the origins of scholars: Turkish scholars and Turkologists tend to use the latter, more general medievalists, whether Islamic scholars or Byzantinists, as well as earlier scholars tend to use the former. To this must be added the readability factor: the average reader won't know that "C" in modern Turkish represents the "[d]j" sound (e.g. the translator of the article in the Greek WP thought the "C" represented a "K" sound ). I therefore am moving the article to "Junayd of Aydın", although "Juneyd" is an equally acceptable form. Constantine  ✍  10:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Just for the sake of clarity, I'd like to discuss the naming conventions. I see that Constantine had moved Cüneyt to Junayd . Possible, but why ? According to WP, "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject " There is no definite border between established and unestablished. But presume such names as Napoleon, Goethe or Chaikovski have established usage in English. But frankly, can Cüneyt also have an established usage ? Probably, less than one out of a million English speakers know anything about Cüneyt. Is this an established usage ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 15:22, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Established usage does not equate common knowledge. I dare say not many Turkish-speakers are likely know anything about this personage either. That is not the point. The point is to use a form that is used in relevant literature, such as it is. This is what I have done above; the sources listed are certainly "reliable sources" in their own right, and there are plenty English-language ones among them. Constantine   ✍  17:50, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Speed
I'd like to thank Constantine for the expansion of the article. By the way I am not sure if I understood the the following statement; ''They ... abandoned Mustafa's camp, riding posthaste for Smyrna. Junayd's party arrived before the town on the next evening,'' Well the the birds flight distance between the said river and Smyrna is no less than 250 km. What breed of horse were they using ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 16:59, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks Nedim. The reference is by Doukas, and I elaborated a bit on what he says: basically, Junayd and his men left on the "first hour of night" (in December/January this might mean as early as 18.00), rode without interruption "in one night as much as normally in two days' journey", and arrived at Smyrna on the evening of the next day. In itself, this is far more than the averages or maximums recorded for horses on campaign, but it is not impossible: the party travelled lightly, used good horses, may have had spare horses (Doukas only records that they mounted some 70 horses), and were driven by dire need. Certainly the horses would be nearly useless at the end of such a ride, and the riders nearing exhaustion, but it is possible. Doukas may of course have exaggerated, but it is unlikely as he is generally reliable and well-informed on Aydinid affairs; it is more likely that if untrue, this story reflects what people told of Junayd's ride, but either way, we cannot know. Constantine  ✍  21:44, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Copy edits
Per: "The beylik was extended by Mehmed Bey ((r. 1308–1334 – undefined)) into the former Byzantine lands along the Küçükmenderes River up to the Aegean coast. Its two main ports were Ayasoluk, near the ruins of ancient Ephesus, and Smyrna, while its capital was Birgi."

This is a complex sentence enen without the four parenthetic clauses for various names of the localities. This all made for a sentence that was particularly difficult to read. I am suggesting this edit, moving what was previously in brackets to footnotes. You will note, that many text readers will display the note content when the cursor hovers over the note. I changed the note template being used to make it easier for me to edit and not because there was anything intrinsically wrong with the template previously used. You will see that there is a link to Selçuk in both the main text and the note. A footnote is not counted as part of the readable prose. My understanding is that it is not overlinking to have the same link in the main text and a note or caption (unless somebody disagrees). I scratched my head on how to resolve the issue and this was my solution. I am not saying it is the best or the only solution. Hope it is OK. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I thought you might want to adjust my suggestion. It is a chunk of a change so I paused here. Let me know if this is ok or not. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 04:08, 7 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi Cinderella157! Hmmm, I don't know. I usually prefer footnotes to actually have some stand-alone content that clarifies something, but does not necessarily belong in the main article. The localities are in fact directly relevant, both for the modern reader (modern names) and for the researcher (Byzantine names), since the main source of the article is Doukas, who uses the latter (and much of the secondary literature does the same). I would strongly prefer the toponyms to remain inline. Perhaps the "Byzantine" portion could be stricken, it should be evident that the same settlement is meant. BTW, please me next time for a quicker response. Constantine   ✍  08:29, 8 October 2017 (UTC)


 * @User:Cplakidas, I woulds too - usually. This is why I paused here, thinking it might need some discussion or you would have a differing view. It is a case of making it more readable. The sentence could be "broken up" but the natural break is about 3/4 through and doesn't really alleviate the problem. The other problem is " (Byzantine Agios Theologos, modern Selçuk)", which adds to the level of complexity. You will see that the footnote for this changes the punctuation that makes the meaning (IMO) clearer but such punctuation might be even more problematic if the same were tried in the "main" prose. And, having treated one differently, I chose to treat them all this way in this "particular" sentence. I am certainly open to other suggestions and working iteratively to a solution - or this may be considered an "acceptable" exception. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 08:54, 8 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I know, I too am not too happy about the many parentheses; let's keep the footnotes for now and we can revisit this at the end. Cheers, Constantine  ✍  09:05, 8 October 2017 (UTC)


 * @User:Cplakidas, glad we have a common ground. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 09:09, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Attribution
@User:Cplakidas Re: "Sources about the period are many and have diverse provenance, differing greatly in scope, detail, and reliability". This is opinion and should be more explicitly attributed to Kastritsis. "The author, Kastritsis, observes that ...". At present, this is an indirect quote. Does he make a succinct statement to this effect that could be directly quoted. You may have a better description of Kastritsis than just an author. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 03:24, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I find this problematic; first, because this statement is a summary of Kastritsis' description of the various sources by me; second, because as a qualified expert drawing upon other expert works, this represents scholarly consensus. It is not an opinion to state that the sources "have diverse provenance" or that they differ "in scope, detail"; and even reliability can be objectively measured, when the statements of a source are fanciful or inaccurate when checked against better sources. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

@User:Cplakidas,


 * Is there a link to Bodemya (Potamia)?
 * According to Zachariadou ('"Trade and Crusade''), "Ibrahim, also called Bahadur, received Potamia (Bodemya) in the region of Odemish", and some Turkish sources indicate that this is modern Bademli, Ödemiş . I've added it as a footnote. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)


 * In saying there is no "relationship with Bodemya", what is the basis for this? If he were the lord of Bodemya, he would have a relationship. One could say: "in consideration of X sources make no reference to Bodemya, she concluded it unlikely". This could be done as a footnote. At the moment, it is a leap of faith that begs the dots to be joined.
 * The basis for a supposed relationship with Bodemya is his suggested identification with Ibrahim Bahadur. Ibrahim, as the father of Junayd, is nowhere attested by contemporary sources to have any relationship with Bodemya. The "leap of faith" is accepting Akın's proposed identification, when there is no evidence to support it except for the common name. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)


 * More directly attribute text at about the end of the para. I suggest something like the above.
 * Altered to better describe where the information/statements come from. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)


 * "the Latin captain of Smyrna". "Latin", as used here, is very imprecise. To me, it could mean French, Portuguese, Spanish or Italian? Would "Crusader captain" be better? Was he from one of the Italian (city) states? The reference suggests him to be Genoese (or in their employ)?
 * Likely a Genoese or Venetian, but without further information, one cannot say. I've linked the term to Latins, which is the sense it is used in here. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 05:03, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@User:Cplakidas, Per "Ottomanist". Following the links from wictionary, an Ottomanist is a proponent of Ottomanism. Is this what you mean? Or is it that she is a Greek scholar/historian of Ottoman History. If so, it is probably better to say: "the Greek historian ... " or even just "the historian".

I have edited "The Turkish historian Himmet Akın suggested that Junayd's father could be identified with Ibrahim Bahadur". To a more active voice but mainly because "identified with" implies he was an associate of Ibrahim Bahadur (in the same way you might say someone was identified with the XYX movement) and not that he was that person. Other copy edits are for sentence size/complexity. You might check that I have not changed the intended meaning. I am happy with the resolution of other matters in this section. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 03:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * "Ottomanist" now directs to both Ottomanism and Ottoman studies. I've added some details from Zachariadou's rationale, and changed "that Junayd's father was Ibrahim Bahadur" to "that Junayd's father was the same individual as Ibrahim Bahadur" to retain the original sense of a possible identification better. The unclear relationship to the Aydinids proper is not just Kastritsis' view, but also that of Zachariadou, and emerges once Akın's suggestion is rejected. I've therefore removed the attribution "According to Kastritsis". The "thus" clearly links it to the previous argument. Constantine  ✍  16:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Attribution 2
@User:Cplakidas Re: "Mehmed, probably one of his own followers," "probably" is a word to watch. As such, it should, if used, be directly attributed. I am suggesting a note to clarify who he was: "Person XYZ conjectures that the Mehmed initially appointed by Temur was one of Timur's followers. In respect to this appointment, neither [two authors cited] refer to any hereditary claim by the appointee." I don't know what was actually said and by which author. The proposed note could also go into the main prose. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 08:56, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Re: " as he controlled the original core of the Ottoman state in Bithynia, and possibly Bursa" The uncertainty should be directly attribute per words to watch. Have removed for now. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 02:20, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The "possibly" here is a leftover from a previous version. In the chronology as it is now, it makes no difference: Isa did come to control Bursa. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Re: "Junayd agreed, and succeeded in bringing the neighbouring rulers ...". Who says he was instrumental in extending the alliance to include these? Also, reword to second underlined - more neutral? Cinderella157 (talk) 07:59, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not quite sure what you mean with "second underlined" etc. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

@User:Cplakidas, It was a change I made. Sorry that was unclear.

Who was Junayd before this?
, Re: "To maintain his authority, Junayd was forced to submit to the victor and ask for pardon".

"İsa traveled to Smyrna, where he formed an alliance with Junayd" ... It begs the question of "who was Junayd" at this time - what position did he hold that he was in a position to form an alliance with Isa? It follows, what authority did he have "to maintain"? If his "authority" is unknown, it is better to be silent on what "authority he maintained". Also "forced to submit to the victor and ask for pardon" should probably be specifically cited, but there are two possible refs? Do they both refer to being pardoned and both refer to Isa's death? I hope my tags are not perturbing. I have used them where they are expeditious and an answer is not clear (to me). That such questions cannot be answered from the sources is. itself, an answer that might indicate a solution. The tags are not set in concrete. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 08:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Clarified the "authority" part. No worries, I appreciate an engaged reviewer, it helps improve the article considerably. Constantine  ✍  16:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

sorry for the delay, I was otherwise engaged and lacked access to some of the sources for the past couple of weeks. I've tried to address the concerns you raised above. Please have a look. Cheers, Constantine  ✍  16:33, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

@User:Cplakidas, A couple of things with this para. How was it that Junayd came to assert him self as the independant ruler of Smyrna. I am guessing he succeeded his father as governor (an appointment and not an hereditary title?), who would have owed fielty to the ruler of the Beylik of Aydın. Either he (or perhaps his father) asserted independent rule in the turmoil that was occurring. To call him "ruler" implies that he ruled in his own right and not as appointed governor? There is a leap from him being the governor's son to being ruler of the city. I am guessing that the sources are silent on this. We should make the lack of knowledge explicit. Why Junayd formed an alliance with İsa is unclear if he was actually a vassal of Süleyman - one has to read between the lines for this to make sense. It should be more clearly stated. Finally, there is a case of the two cited sources at the close of the para. Unless they each support every element of the sentence, individual parts may need to be separately attributed. (see WikiProject Military history/Academy/Citations and references). I would suggest something like this:

Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 05:13, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * " I am guessing that the sources are silent on this". Precisely. The situation after the Battle of Ankara was chaotic, and he probably seized power in Smyrna. I've added a relevant entry at the end of the first paragraph, but it is partly OR; I don't have access to the primary Turkish sources, for instance. I've made various other tweaks and improvements to the section, please have a look. Re citations, this is a case of "Bundled citations can also be used where multiple works cover the information.". In an iterative process where I (and now you) have gone over the same paragraph again and again, rephrasing and rewriting it, I feel it best (and more honest) if it is kept that way, especially since Kastritsis and Melikoff cover the same ground. Constantine  ✍  16:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * @User:Cplakidas, I did a couple of tweaks too. The result of our efforts "explains" what was an information void - it explains what we don't know and that is a better solution. I removed reference to "chaos" but if the source/s support that it was "chaos", I am happy for it to go back. My understanding of bundled citations might be a little different from yours. It is not a case of putting all of the citations to the end of a paragraph "in a bundle" of multiple notes. Citations should maintain Text–source integrity. A bundled footnote is one "footnote" that captures two or more citations, where they all support what precedes. They do not support, individually, specific points but, collectively, support that which precedes. It might use sfnm. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:26, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Please clarify?
@User:Cplakidas, please see underlined. Mehmed was not in Ayasoluk? Who said the "citadel of Smyrna" was possibly a mistaken reference for Ayasoluk? This is a bit confusing. Did Junayd lay sieze to Ayasoluk and, having captured it, was besieged their or did Mehmed break the siege and force Junayd to retire on Smyrna? As I read it, the sources are unclear as to these two alternatives? Suggest taking what is in bold into an explanatory note. See following.

Suggest note to following extent (and referenced):

Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 09:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've tried to rephrase it to make it clearer. I do not feel that it is our job (or authority) to spell out every eventuality for the reader; merely to point out that the modern scholarship is uncertain how to interpret references in the medieval sources. Constantine  ✍  16:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Regarding the many "attribute" tags in the next section, since they all derive from Doukas, i.e. Magoulias, I don't see the point for individual references. Inalcik was added merely as a corroboration to a primary source (i.e., that this is also the accepted version for modern scholars). I've removed him. Constantine  ✍  16:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * @User:Cplakidas, Happy with the result. It addresses my concerns. While I think that quotes should be explicitly cited where they occur, removing the second source removes any potential "ambiguity" regarding the source of the quotes. regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 02:44, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Juneid
@User:Cplakidas, Quotes from Doukas refer to him as Juneid. Elsewhere, "İzmiroğlu". I added "sic" to one quote and made the other name a note, for raedability. Suggest lead needs to be modified to recognise "Juneid" as a variation? Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * "Juneid" is one of the possible transliterations. I've added a brief explanation of the various names in the lede. I am thinking, however, about the wisdom of moving the article to "Juneyd", as it is closer to the Turkish form of the name, while still being used by major sources (cf. name section above; Juneid and Cüneyd are essentially variant transliterations of Juneyd). I'll think it over over the weekend. Constantine  ✍  12:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi @User:Cplakidas, the note is a good addition. I certainly understand the matter of translations and variations of spelling with time. On the matter of whatever you choose, I am sure it will be well considered. I would tend to use a consistent spelling throughout - even in quotes, where the original source quote might use a different variation. The note on naming could be added to say as much to indicate that "licence" has been taken in this respect. Just a suggestion. I observer that the article uses the US "ize" endings (rather than "ise" but otherwise uses UK spelling. I was going to standardise on the UK but you might do so? I am planning on reading it through top-to-bottom as a final check. I am away from my big screen this week-end but was hoping to do so in the next week. I have appreciated the collegiate manner of our collaboration. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:38, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * On the name, I've been thinking it over over the past week or so, and am still undecided. "Juneyd" is closer to the name's actual phonology, but usage, such as it is, favours Junayd. On the -ize, it is a common misconcenption: both -ize and -ise are acceptable in BritEng, but only -ize in AmEng. I too enjoyed our work together very much. Thanks a lot for your efforts and patience, the article is certainly much improved in prose quality, and you have tremendous work in highlighting any lingering inaccuracies or sources of confusion. Constantine  ✍  08:05, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Need to clarify
Per following para:

The offer by Manual was part of a negotiation? It was contingent on terms but the negotiations broke down? The significance does not become clear until some way into the para. Just wanting to make sure before I did anything with this. The underlined text does not appear to add anything to the article either? Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Regarding the underlined part, you are right. Regarding Manuel's offers, you have understood correctly. Constantine  ✍  12:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Lead
Per: "He proved to be an unruly vassal and inveterate intriguer". "Unruly", while not technically incorrect usage, generally has a meaning different to what is intended and "inveterate" is probably editorialising. There is, perhaps, a better way of describing him. I have been thinking on this but the phrasing is just not coming to me ATM. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 23:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've rephrased it. Have a look. Constantine  ✍  12:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Done
@Constantine, As said, I have now been through it top to bottom one last time. A couple of very minor edit. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 06:03, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Place name
Thanks for the expansion. But most of the article has been rewritten and only a few sentences of the original text survives. What I'm particularly interested is the phrase "Lord of Potamia". There are at least a dozen Potamias around Aegean Sea. If I'm not mistaken this one must be Bademli in İzmir Province. Please add the modern name of the location. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:19, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Marriage
The siege was lifted when a pact was made in which Junayd offered one of his daughters in marriage with Umur. Really?

Doukas claims that before killing Umur, Cüneyd was able to marry his daughter, - Kastritsis, page 50. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Удивленный1 (talk • contribs) 12:27, 27 June 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Удивленный1 (talk • contribs) 13:33, 27 June 2018 (UTC) PS. Upgrade: Two points of view. First: Second:
 * Juneid then negotiated a reconcilation with Umur and gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage. (Magoulias,p.101)
 * Djunayd <...> regained Ayasoluk and made peace with Umur II whose daughter he married.. (Melikoff,1965)
 * Doukas claims that before killing Umur, Cüneyd was able to marry his daughter. (Kastritsis, page 50)
 * agreed that Junayd should marry the daughter of Umur, (Foss, page 165)

--Удивленный1 (talk) 14:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)