Talk:Juvenal

Comments
Throughout this article the date nomenclature is incorrect. Whereas the notation e.g. 100 BC is accepted for dates prior to the Christan era, dates in the Christian era are properly notated e.g. AD 100. 212.159.59.5 (talk) 11:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The references and notes in this article seem funny to me--as a reader, I wanted to see where this sentence came from: "The misogyny and other forms of hatred perceived in the text are as attributable to what readers across the centuries have brought to the reading as to what Juvenal intended." It's not footnoted, but it looks like it might be something attributable to Stanley Fish.

At this point I got curious and clicked the next footnote, number 8, which gave a statement rather than an attribution. Really weird. The carat (sp?) at the beginning just jumped me to the list of the "references", which were books in alphabetical order rather than sources for the specific statements. Any ideas? Please note, I'm not a regular editor so there may be good reasons for all of these things, in which case please slap me down! :)

Slowmind (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes the entire last section of the article (now reworked and renamed as Modern Criticism and Historical Context of the Satires) was hugely problematic -- it was essentially a political essay based on personal opinions. I've reworked it significantly, while leaving for balance the leftist-oriented arguments against Juvenal's world view. I removed the most inappropriate opinion footnote-cum-"reference" (note the others have now auto-renumbered, versus previous comment above).


 * 75.36.158.254 (talk) 23:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)NPOV Editor

I think some of this article is portrayed in the same fashion of the original poet; anti-humanitarian, anti-social and very pessimistic. In particular, the section regarding "modern criticism". Especially the 3rd Paragraph.

Material temporarily cut
The Satires have inspired many authors, including Samuel Johnson, who modeled his “London” on Satire III and his “Vanity of Human Wishes” on Satire X. Juvenal is the source of many well-known maxims, including:
 * that the common people—rather than caring about their freedom—are only interested in “bread and circuses” (panem et circenses 10.81; i.e. food and entertainment),
 * that—rather than for wealth, power, or children—men should pray for a “sound mind in a sound body” (mens sana in corpore sano 10.356),
 * that a perfect wife is a “rare bird” (rara avis in terris nigroque simillima cycno 6.165; a rare bird in the earth and most similar to a black swan)
 * and the troubling question of who can be trusted with power—“who will watch the watchers?” or "who will guard the guardians themselves?" (quis custodiet ipsos custodes 6.347-48). Moreschi (talk) (debate) 16:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Why was this good material removed? There's no explanation here so I'm putting it back in as a final "Literary and Cultural Influence" section. If there are any problems with lack of references, etc., just add those or add "FACT" or "CLARIFY" tags.

Discussion of His Latin
Missing is a discussion of the quality of his Latin, with his possible origin from the lower classes, and as the Classical Latin period drew to a close.

Success in His Lifetime and His Posterity
Missing is a discussion of how he was received in his lifetime, and what critical and financial success and social status a Roman writer might have enjoyed. (In this vein, how did ancient authors made money without copyright and mass duplication?)

Is there any speculation on children? The text describes his later relation/descendent as rising in status by "assimilating themselves" -- without the possible context of them inheriting wealth or fame from Juvenal himself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.158.254 (talk) 23:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Other Biographies?
The article refers to "The traditional biographies, including the Vita Iuvenalis" -- and then bases a paragraph on their contents.

But these traditional biographies of than Vita Juvenalis are never named. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.158.254 (talk) 23:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

"Ask not what your country can do for you..." quote
I cannot find a reliable reference that attributes this quote to Juvenal. I did find a mention elsewhere that it's in Satire VIII; however, when I look at the text of Satire VIII, I cannot see it. I think this attribution should be deleted if no reliable reference is available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiona-bc (talk • contribs) 17:54, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

At first glance the Satires...
"At first glance the Satires could be read as a critique of pagan Rome." What other way is there to "read" it? -- Haxwell (talk) 16:52, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

I believe the point is that they are a critique of paganism, rather than merely critique of Rome & its milieu, which is why the monks saved them from being lost.Suanla (talk) 16:42, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Heinrich "Boll"
To judge from the space given to it, someone thinks an extremely important aspect of Juvenal is that Heinrich "Boll" read him. Or maybe not?2A02:AA1:1018:FAB:388C:55BD:FECE:ED23 (talk) 18:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)