Talk:Kafr Qasim massacre

About an event in village history, not the village
This is not an article about the village. It's mostly about the massacre which is part of the village history. I think that this article should be edited, so that most of it will be a paragraph about the history. What about adding some facts and info about the current village situation ?? ^^ Dod1 10:23, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Translation and casualty numbers
Translated from the talk page for the corresponding Hebrew entry:


 * The casualty numbers are different from those that appear in the English entry. What is the data source? 217.132.33.12 10:57, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Indeed, different sources give different numbers of casualties, and this problem bothered me when writing the entry. In Meir Vilner's article, which appears under External Links, the number of fatalities that appears is 49, and I suppose this is the source of that number in the English Wiki. In written sources that were at my disposal I've found the number 43 fatalities. On the Snunit website I've found information that bridges the gap between the two numbers, based on the verdict on the matter, which I regard as the most credible source. It turns out that in addition to the Kafr Qasim massacre, which is a specific event in which 43 were killed, there were other events at the village, in which another four fatalities occurred, also in the first hour of curfew. The other fatalities are not of smaller significance, but they are not part of the Kafr Qasim massacre, and they were not the subject of the Kafr Qasim trial. As the verdict explicitly says "those four victims were included in the indictment by mistake and the prosecutor asked, as mentioned in paragraph 1 above, to acquit the defendants of the charge of murdering them". Therefore I have chosen to mention the number 43 fatalities, which is also a terrible number. Apparently Meir Vilner decided not to distinguish between the different fatalities and chose the number 49 (I don't know who the additional two fatalities that Vilner counted are). David Shay 12:00, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I saw that I'd actually mentioned in the body of the article all the numbers, in the sentence "The soldiers of on of the battalion's teams, under the command of Lt. Dahan, shot to death, in cold blood, 43 of the village's residents, including 12 women and 17 children and youths. The commanders of four other teams that acted in the village refrained from such extreme action, but within an hour of the beginning of curfew, another four (or six) residents were killed". David Shay 12:04, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

217.132.33.12 12:53, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Confusing and POV
This article is written in a confusing matter and from a POV perspective. It needs a rewrite.

Guy Montag 01:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

POV
Would you give us a hint why you totally dispute this article's neutrality and factual accuracy?--Doron 02:29, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd be happy too. I need a little time to write a comprehensive argument.

Guy Montag 02:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually the article is quite accurate and balanced. --Zero 16:37, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I disagree.

Guy Montag 21:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I put it all in the right order and I noted my commentary on the subject inside the article and where sources should be cited. The problem with this article is that it is based on specific texts that not everyone has access too. So The sources could be biased, the wording could be biased, something could have been withheld. There is no way to check this, and I've assumed mostly good faith, although the wording has led me to doubt it.

Guy Montag 21:38, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It already was in the right order - chronological. The claim that he said these things then is what's of interest, not the fact that he was quoted later. - Mustafaa 21:42, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * "There is no way to check this" - actually, for $12.00 you can check it online. http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?REQUNIQ=1118439845&REQSESS=14662550&117000REQEVENT=&REQINT1=169256&REQAUTH=0 . - Mustafaa 21:46, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When I was reading the article I believed that there were alot of contextual gaps. First it was talking about the Jordanians going to war, then it starts quoting the commanders. I think that part should be filled with contextual information, and everything that was court related to be during the trial.

Guy Montag 21:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You ask "What was the motivation for the cerfew?" Well, "it was expected that Jordan would enter the conflict on Egypt's side" and it was imposed "upon all Arab villages in the area close to the Jordanian border". Aren't those two statements sufficient to clarify the reason? - Mustafaa 21:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You ask "Why is none of thus sourced properly?" I can only disagree. I much prefer an article sourced from books than from webpages; books tend to be better-researched, less POV, and more reliable. - Mustafaa 21:54, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I do not doubt that. The problem is that although I so very much want to assume good faith, I have to be a little suspicious when dealing with the Arab Israeli conflict. I value other people's pov, but something I cannot verify becomes an elitist edit that only few individuals with access can verify. There were also times when people used book names and pages that did not fit with the information provided, most notably the Revisionist Zionism article, which I had to painstakingly fix through proper book references. In theory, I love book sources, in practice I fear misuse. I have no doubt that the events happened, I just want readers to have the whole picture. I am interested too as I am only finding information from one sided sources.

Guy Montag 00:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You ask "Where is the information after this, why the sudden random break?" This I agree with; I think the reason is that it happened the same day, but the article needs to make that clear. - Mustafaa 21:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would be happy to cooperate with you in fixing this information.

Guy Montag 00:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * So far you have not identified a single problem with this article. The only problem you really have is that it shows Israel in a bad light.  Tough.  --Zero 00:54, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have identified problems with this article and Mustafaa has agreed with me. Why dont you contribute something to the talk page other than your overt hostility? I showed what is wrong, if you don't want to add material to fix the article, don't respond with pointless tangents. Unless you didn't know, all the information on the net about this article comes from socialist/Islamist sources, and duplicated wikipedia pages. Unless accounts from the other side are provided, it will remain an incomplete article.

Guy Montag 08:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Changes
I've made substantial contextual and accuracy changes to the article. I've removed a quote wrongfully attributed to Malinki (some philosopher made it), fixed the amount killed, added background about the military administration from 1948-1966 (very important, I can't believe it was left out), fixed sentence structure and npoved the wording. I've also added some more aftermath information, and added notes on things that still need to be looked at. Although it is not fully done, I think the changes I made have substantially improved the quality of the article to the point where individual changes can be made. I await commentary on the edit. At least now we know where to go from.

Guy Montag 12:33, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am out of time today. Many of your deletions are going back. The story of the "grush" is not from a US newspaper, but very famous. Every Israeli who is old enough remembers it. You can find it on page 411 of Robinson's article (congratulations for actually reading something; the link you gave doesn't work for people who didn't pay, though). The story of the cordon around the village is also from Robinson and is also going back. --Zero 15:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The link is a free copy I found. I've reinserted the Robinson cited quotes. In the future, watch your tone, I don't appreciate condescending attitude from you when I have done nothing other than cooperate.

Guy Montag 22:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Was Judge Halevy's insistance on disobeying illegal orders a clarification on the already established "Purity of Arms" military doctrine, or was it an addition to it?

Guy Montag 01:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * There was no such doctrine in a strict legal sense. The principle that manifestly illegal orders had to be disobeyed had already entered Israeli jurisprudence via the Eichmann trial, which in turn relied on the customary international law established at Nuremburg.  The Kafr Qasim case was the first of significance which tested its applicability to Israeli military personnel.  Whether it was an innovation or a clarification is a matter of opinion.  Incidentally the newer sources I have found show that the chronology of the trials in the article is a bit confused.  I'll fix it. --Zero 12:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Um, not exactly. The Kafr Qasim trial preceded the Eichmann trial and was used as a precedent in the latter.  Nuremberg precedents were cited in both trials.  --Zero 13:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Article finished?
So, what else needs work in this article? It looks pretty good to me.

Guy Montag 00:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The "timeline" section is not well written and I plan to revise it a little after I finish reading the court judgment. The enigmatic link "Operation Hafarferet" near the end needs to be replaced by a sentence or two since I don't think there is enough material for a full article on that.  Otherwise I agree it is finished.  Incidentally the link  still gives me "Sorry, your right to access this content has not been recognized."; does it really work for you?  --Zero 00:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the article works fine, perhaps it is your connection. If you are still having a problem, I suggest a public library computer, or I can save the document and e-mail it to you. Also, could you please eleborate about the "nine seperate instances"? Because now it reads awkwardly. Hmm, I haven't heard of an english version for that operation, and the previous article was originally in Hebrew.

Guy Montag 03:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I have the paper already because my computer at work has a subscription. I get the failure from my home ISP.  I suspect you are doing it from your university and that is why it works for you.  --Zero 09:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * As for the nine separate incidents: the villagers were killed in nine groups over a period of more than an hour, not all in the same place and not always by the same killers. There were from 2 to 17 deaths in each group.  I'll try to clarify it; meanwhile I found another mistake.  --Zero 09:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The basic information about "Operation Hafarferet" is given by Bilsky on p321 and by Robinson on p418. Not much is available in English as far as I know. --Zero 09:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Numbers problem again. This says [] 47 died. Arab sources say 49. What do we put?

Guy Montag 06:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * You will find 43, 47, 48 and 49 stated as the number of victims. Here is the explanation.  There were 47 people shot dead by the BP soldiers.  One old man died of a shock-induced stroke; that makes 48.  One woman had an unborn child; that makes the 49 whose names are inscribed on the memorial.  The soldiers were charged with the 47 shooting deaths, but during the first trial the court could not determine the identities of the perpetrators in 4 cases (it wasn't the same shooters each time) so 4 charges of murder were withdrawn.  That's where 43 comes from. Dahan was convicted of all 43. --Zero 09:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why did you change 4:30 to 3:30? Robinson clearly says 4:30. --Zero 09:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This says 3:30. It also says 47 people died. How do we solve this? It would be very illogical if 350 some people were able to return from as far as Ramle and Jaffa in 30 minutes. Obviously either Robinson got the time wrong or David Shipler has it wrong.

Guy Montag 09:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * You are misreading. Your source says the BP soldiers were told at 3:30.  Robinson says the Mukhta was told at 4:30.  Those are completely consistent.  As for the "illogic", not all of the village was absent at 4:30 and some were warned in time.  A few were not killed even though they arrived at the dangerous time, and some did not arrive until after the killing was stopped some time before 7pm.  Also (during the server failure for the past 10 mins) I found that there is an memo mentioned in the trial judgment which records Malinki's order to announce the curfew at 4:30pm.  --Zero 10:26, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let's remove that tag! Any remaining problems must be very minor. --Zero 10:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Roger that.

Guy Montag 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Well done Guy & Zero! An excellent example of the wiki cooperation spirit!


 * Since so much effort has gone into the existing format, I would like to post additional data from the Hebrew wiki here for review, before posting it on the main article page:


 * Malinki was commander of a BP battalion (not just one of its commanders as mentioned in the English version). He was also in charge of 11 other vilages in the area where no vilagers were shot, because of direct orders by local commanders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders and to not open fire. Among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Lt. Dahan actually openned fire.


 * altmany 22:28, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's true. The fact that other local commanders realised they had to disobey the order was cited by the court as one of the reasons for denying Dahan's claim that he had no choice.  --Zero 23:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be noted in the article? Also, is it possible to translate this article to Hebrew? It improves on the original.

Guy Montag 00:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Death toll

 * According to (Benny Morris, "Israel's Border Wars, 1949-1956: Arab Infiltration, Israeli Retaliation and the Countdown to the Suez War"), the death toll was 47, including 15 women and 11 children aged 8-15. Do you have any idea why the discrepancy?
 * The above does not mention the stroke casualty. Did he die as a result of an injury inflicted by the shooters?--Doron 07:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Benny Morris's largish footnote must have been written on a bad day because it has lots of errors. For example it says that 11 people were convicted whereas 11 were tried and 8 convicted.  He also attributes a saying to Malinki that in fact someone else said.  So I wouldn't worry about it too much.  The number 47 is clearly accounted for in the court judgement so it is solid.  The old man died of a stroke shortly after the massacre, and I don't know if he was injured himself (more likely he was related to some of the victims like much of the village was).  The village includes his death in the total, but the court didn't include it in the indictment.  I think both points of view were reasonable.  --Zero 07:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The "Little Triangle" consists of the seven Arab communities of Jaljulye, Kafr Bara, Kafr Qasim, Qalansawe, Tayibe, Tire and Zemer. The "Triangle" in the north consists of twelve Arab communities.--Doron 07:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Infiltrators
See Zero's edit summary for 12.07 13 June: "Shadmi was IDF, not BP; most infiltration was not fedayeen; Arabs were citizens." Fedayeen were overwhelmingly Palestinians, while infiltrators were most often Palestinian villagers: this was not clearly expressed. I hope that explains it.

In any case, in relation to your remark that you basically wrote the page with someone else, articles in Wikipedia are not subject to the copyright of the people who wrote them, so if something is simply badly expressed it is not necessary to ask anyone's permission to change it on the talk page.

In addition, deleting words which change the meaning (or make the meaning harder to get at, as in this case) is not a minor edit and should not be marked as such. See Minor_edit. Palmiro 17:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean by Palestinian villegers? I wasn't expressing any copywritten right, I was noting that I have a very large understanding of the article.

Guy Montag 18:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood you. Historically, many infiltrators were Palestinian villagers (also Bedouin, but I don't know that there were many of them in that area), either inhabitants of villages on the Jordanian side of the Green Line who owned lands on the other side, or refugees from villages on the other side. The reasons for infiltration included pasturing animals (particularly for the Bedouin), tending land and getting agricultural produce (most often in the earliest years after 1948), and smuggling, inter alia. My point is that the fedayeen were generally Palestinians as well, whereas if you say "Palestinians and fedayeen" it incorrectly leaves the impression that the fedayeen were of another nationality. Hope that's clearer. Palmiro 18:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Many fedayeen were of Egyptian and Syrian origin.

Guy Montag 03:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Black Flag Defense
I have attempted to edit this article, with the statement and cite "However, 50 years have passed since the Kafr Qasim massacre, and the "Black Flag Defense" has failed to protect any IDF serviceman from conviction for "refusing to obey orders" eg ".

The statement I added has been summararily deleted, with no attempt at any form of explanation or discussion. The words quoted come from Israeli servicemen - they cannot possible be unacceptably Palestinian POV. (and it's very unlikely that they're unreliable - though I'd struggle to prove a negative).

I have no intention of stooping to edit-war, but I think these words should go back. PalestineRemembered 20:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, the statement is nowhere to be seen in the site you linked to. In fact, there have been countless times where soldiers were not judged for refusing an illegal order. These times are so common that they are in no way notable and are not documented, except in borderline cases where there are those who claim that the order is legal (like in the case of those 26 pilots who refused to bomb Palestinian areas). If the order was proven legal by the military court, which operates on the same basis as a civilian court, then obviously the soldier refusing the order would be judged. There are tons of legal orders which pro-Palestinians consider illegal, but the IDF military court, rightfully, doesn't care about what they think, and follows military law which gives a generally clear distinction between 'legal', 'illegal' and 'clearly illegal' orders. Having said all that, it was not me who deleted the statement, but I agree with the person who did it. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 04:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I found that statement immediately on the same link I've given you.
 * And you've failed to address the point at issue - the "Black Flag Defense" (at least according to this web-site, and it does come from people who would know) has never been accepted by an Israeli court.
 * Since the "Black Flag Defense" came about as a direct consequence of this massacre, some serious discussion of it must belong on this page. Under the circumstances, a single sentence appears to cover it completely, which makes the lead an entirely proper place to put it. The strange part is that you and others seem to consider it some form of POV edit - yet the only objection I can see is that it undermines militarism. I fail to understand why people are taking it out without addressing the issue of "illegal orders" and what it means in court. PalestineRemembered 21:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I note that my attempt to bring this feature into the article has again been reverted, and with no attempt at discussion or consensus.

I'm not interested in an edit-war over this edit or any other - but I have to wonder about the intentions of editors who make no attempt to come to a consensus or use the Talk pages.

PalestineRemembered 21:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This "feature" is OR. It's high time you read and familiarize yourself with that important WP policy. Isarig 21:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm still a newby - but I'm slowly losing my shyness. What I posted could be borderline WP:RS, but it's clearly not WP:OR.
 * In fact, what I posted is really quite good information - and if anyone felt it should be proved false, then it would be very easy indeed to do so. After all, proving a positive is always simple, it's me, in the position of proving a negative who is on the back foot. You've had several opportunities to disprove it now, it's time to put up or shutup.
 * You'll be pleased to know that I've checke the words of WP:OR], it says the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say. Which is what I'm doing, my source (at least in this respect) is very [[WP:RS indeed. I'm less than convinced that others are as careful.
 * As I've said before, I'm not interested in an edit-war, good information belongs in the encyclopedia. It's difficult to understand the motivation of people who persistently take it out. I note you've ignored my challenge to provide a single contrary example.
 * PalestineRemembered 22:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What you posted is clearly OR. In fact, it is exactly what is described in the very first paragraph of WP:OR: (My emphasis) "Original research is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position ". This article is about the Massacre. It is relevant to mention the "Black Flag defense" in that context, because as noted, this is an important legal concept, and this is the first time it was referenced in Israeli legal proceedings. However, the claim that this defense has never been successfully used thereafter is an argument, not published by a WP:RS, and you are using it to advance a position. It is textbook OR. Please cease your attempts to add POV-pushing OR to the encyclopedia. Isarig 22:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Then you've abandoned the objection you were making earlier, that the source wasn't WP:RS.
 * On the grounds of WP:OR it's bullet-proof, the edit I've been trying to make is based on the following statement: `Black Flag' is an allusion to a famous Israeli court ruling following the 1956 Kafr Qasm massacre. In this ruling, the judges said that any soldier has the right and obligation to refuse clearly illegal commands, above which `hangs a black flag'. In the 45 years that passed since then, not even a single soldier was protected by a military court for refusing to obey a command because it was a `black flag' command at
 * Just to repeat myself, the source is potentially wobbly, being of a "campaigning" nature. However, there's no real dispute possible with the factual basis of the claim, which tends to undermine the "campaign" message of the site. (Unless something has changed in the meantime, since it's now 50 years since the massacre - I'm sure you'd correct me if with evidence if I was factually wrong).
 * Can I take it you'll have no further objection to my using this reference and putting it in?
 * PalestineRemembered 00:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You need to read more carefully:" "Original research is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source." What you posted is OR, and published in a non WP:RS. The first part of your edit, which reads "`Black Flag' is an allusion to a famous Israeli court ruling following the 1956 Kafr Qasm massacre. In this ruling, the judges said that any soldier has the right and obligation to refuse clearly illegal commands, above which `hangs a black flag."- is fine. It is not OR, and it is relevant to this article. The second part, which reads "In the 45 years that passed since then, not even a single soldier was protected by a military court for refusing to obey a command because it was a `black flag' command" is an argument being used to advance a position which is not germane to this article, and comes from a non-WP:RS. This is exactly the kind of POV-pushing edit that WP:NOR was written to prevent. Isarig 01:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that this insertion is original research, but I have to say that I don't like it much and would not personally put it in the article. The reliability of the source for this information is dubious because it doesn't relate directly to the subject on which the source is expert (the opinions and fortunes of the refusers-to-serve). But mainly I dislike it because it is incomplete and potentially misleading. The most literal interprettation would be "no soldier has been charged for disobeying an order and then successfully used the black flag defence". Maybe that is true, I don't know. But that is not the most likely way a soldier would be defended by the principle. In a case so blatant that the black flag defence would be likely to succeed, the soldier would probably not be charged. The military would prefer such cases to disappear from public exposure as soon as possible, not to give them the publicity of a court case that might even lead to an embarrassing failure. --Zerotalk 14:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Difficult to understand the removing the highly credible claims of Israeli servicement

 * Israeli servicemen who've refused orders from their government claim that the "Black Flag Defense" has never succeeded in acquitting anyone.
 * While the means of publishing this statement (a campaigning web-site) would normally be considered a little on the suspect side, in this case it amounts to excellent WP:RS.
 * Anyone removing this statement has it easy, all they have to do is provide a case where the "Black Flag" defense has been acceptable when a soldier has been prosecuted. (We can ignore the time I was sent to a Wikipedia Hebrew reference that I'm pretty sure said nothing of the kind).
 * 4 times I've asked for proof of what what's been claimed ..... which was: "There have been ma[n]y cases since 1956 in which soldiers have claimed "patently illegal orders" and were acquitted" and "Soldiers have succ[e]sssfully used this defense on charges of, for ex[a]maple, refusing to throw away fresh produce".
 * I appreciate the care with which some editors write in the Wikipedia and the thoughtful way they discuss postings before carrying out unilateral action that could otherwise easily be mistaken for vandalism.
 * (This editor is determined not to enter into edit-wars. He would appreciate similar consideration before people unilaterally remove his edits, particularily when it is other completely independent editors who put them back in, apparently considering them worthwhile).
 * PalestineRemembered 21:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Why should we ignore the referne given to you, from the Hebrew wiki, which not only provides the needed reference, but also directly addresses the claim from your source, and refutes it? Isarig
 * Because this is the English Wikipedia. References such as yours can be used, but what I've been told about the article in the Hebrew Wiki does not refute the claim of the servicemen.
 * The article (of which you've not provided a translation, and mysteriously managed to send me to the wrong place) only quotes Israeli court members as having stated that "the Black Flag Defense" would have worked in certain minor cases (eg misuse of army vehicles). It does not state that a single serviceman has ever successfully used this defense for anything.
 * I'm putting the claim back in, without any reference, since it clearly doesn't need one. It's a fact so well known that written confirmation in a 100% WP:RS source has so far eluded me.
 * PalestineRemembered 10:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Even you say that this is a claim, not a fact (which makes it OR by default). In fact, military tribunals are not held in public and there are close to 400 people awaiting judgement at any given time, bringing the total to thousands each year, and tens of thousands since the Kafr Qasim massacre. Even without evidence for either argument, the likelihood that no one has ever been acquitted with this defense is minute. It is not easy (might be impossible since this information isn't public) to check this for sure, but so far you have not provided a single reliable source (which would basically be just the IDF, since they are the only ones who can know for sure whether at least one of the thousands of people were acquitted), or in fact any source, to back up your claim. Therefore, please stop re-inserting original research. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Rename article
Suggest renaming to something more neutral like "Qasim incident" or "Qasim raid" Rune X2 14:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Negative. Even the Israeli courts called it a massacre and anyway this is its most common English name. --Zerotalk 14:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

New Haaretz article
On 18 October 2008, Haaretz published a long and important article (Do the right thing, by Dalia Karpel) on the soldiers who refused to carry out the orders and kill civilians in other villages. As well as interviews with surviving soldiers (some of whom had never previously spoken about the events), the article includes speculation about Malinki's motivations, and details of Operation Hafarferet ("Mole"). This article adds substantially to our understanding both of the context of this massacre, and of the moral dilemmas of some of those involved. Unless someone beats me to it, I propose to include some of this material in the article. RolandR (talk) 09:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Updated link for the article: . Zerotalk 04:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The section on Operation Hafarferet concludes that "Rosenthal found no evidence that the killings were part of the plan or in any way pre-planned" and that "a similar opinion is held by historian Adam Raz and given in a testiminy of Shadmi shortly befor his death". Aside from the fact that the English should cleaned up, the article cited regarding Raz's opinion and Shadmi's testimony (General's Final Confession Links 1956 Massacre to Israel's Secret Plan to Expel Arabs. Haaretz, October 11, 2018) comes to exactly the opposite conclusion, stating for example that "Raz's study ... proves his claim that there is a connection between the massacre and the secret operation [that is, Operation Hafarferet]." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sganot (talk • contribs) 08:02, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The new text is misleading. The question is not about whether there was a connection but whether Operation Hafarferet explicitly called for a massacre. The new article does not say that it did, even though it does say that the massacre occurred in the context of the Operation. Suggest a better wording. Zerotalk 08:13, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

addition
I think it would be nice to add that this incident is being taught in israeli schools to high school students. the incident is talked about at the class and in school text books, it is given as an example of an illegal order that should not be carried out. from it students learn that they have an obligation not to carry our orders that are against some international values. in my opinion it would be a good addition to the article that at least the lesson is being learned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrZaf (talk • contribs) 14:44, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be fine, but it can only be added if a good source can be found. Zerotalk 04:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Sulha
Hello -- I saw that Robinson was already used as a source within the article, yet without giving her perspective on the ceremony, which I don't think was acceptable (both source usage-wise and NPOV-wise). I added it, corroborated by Slyomovics, 2008. This also seems to give due weight to more recent secondary (academic quality) sources, as opposed to period articles or (then) nearly-primary Davar, which the official recollection is based upon. What do you think? Best, —Ireilly talk 10:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I see that my edit to the article about the Kafr Qasim massacre, which added the quotation from the first comprehensive modern history of Israel by Noah Lucas (1975) was completely removed with the remark that it "added nothing."

I disagree.

Lucas' history is not focused on such events. It is a general history.

It is therefore that much more notable that he cites this particular event as emblematic of the fundamental relationship that existed between Jews and Arabs in the long aftermath of the 1948 war, taking place when these areas remained under martial law that had been imposed during British mandatory rule in response to actions by Jewish settlers, and highly resented by them, but then kept in place.

It is also to be noted that in the introduction as it now stands, there is no mention of the fact that the Arab villagers were killed as they returned from the fields unaware that a curfew had been placed, even though this fact was addressed in much greater detail in the body of the article, as is very appropriate and helps to explain in part how the event occurred. Improvethewiki (talk) 08:50, 17 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Improvethewiki (talk • contribs)

I see that my edit to the article about the Kafr Qasim massacre, which added the quotation from the first comprehensive modern history of Israel by Noah Lucas (1975) was completely removed with the remark that it "added nothing."

I disagree.

Lucas' history is not focused on such events. It is a general history.

It is therefore that much more notable that he cites this particular event as emblematic of the fundamental relationship that existed between Jews and Arabs in the long aftermath of the 1948 war, taking place when these areas remained under martial law that had been imposed during British mandatory rule in response to actions by Jewish settlers, and highly resented by them, but then kept in place.

It is also to be noted that in the introduction as it now stands, there is no mention of the fact that the Arab villagers were killed as they returned from the fields unaware that a curfew had been placed, even though this fact was addressed in much greater detail in the body of the article, as is very appropriate and helps to explain in part how the event occurred. Improvethewiki (talk) 09:24, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed edit to opening section
This is the opening summary as it now stands:

"The Kafr Qasim massacre took place in the Israeli Arab village of Kafr Qasim situated on the Green Line, at that time, the de facto border between Israel and the Jordanian West Bank on October 29, 1956. It was carried out by the Israel Border Police (Magav) and resulted in 48 Arab civilians dead, including 6 women and 23 children aged 8–17. Arab sources usually give the death toll as 49, as they include the unborn child of one of the women.

The border policemen who were involved in the shooting were brought to trial and found guilty and sentenced to prison terms, but all received pardons and were released in a year.[1] The brigade commander was sentenced to pay the symbolic fine of 10 prutot (old Israeli cents).[2] The Israeli court found that the command to kill civilians was “blatantly illegal”.[3]

In December 2007, President of Israel Shimon Peres formally apologised for the massacre.[4]"

In my view, the function of the opening summary is to provide the fundamental facts of the subject. I consider this summary to fail in this.

This summary provides no indication of context. There is no reference to the facts that provide any explanation of how or why this occurred.

Therefore, I added the following 3-sentence paragraph to the opening summary:

"The underlying basis of relations between the two communities was most crudely unveiled on the night of 28 October 1956. The peaceful villagers of Kfar Kassem were massacred as they returned home from the fields, unknowingly violating a curfew that had ben hastily imposed on the eve of the Sinai war. The officers responsible for the killing were indeed court-martialed, but were later amnestied." [4]

This provides context, connects this event to the other major event occurring at that time in 1956, and it constitutes solely a direct quotation from a respected text (A Modern History of Israel, by Noah Lucas), with no additional comment or editorializing on my part.

This edit was instantly removed in its entirety, with the explanation that it added nothing. I disagree.

My subsequent efforts to bring about a discussion of this instant deletion, with the administrator who performed it, have gone without response, which I continue to invite.Improvethewiki (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

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prison time
I dont know if the second paragraph is misleading or a blatant lie, but the accused soldiers were in prison for more than a year, despite what you wrote. for example, here is an article from the Israeli newspaper ma'ariv, that states that shmuel melinki was in jail for 3 years and 4 months, before he was released because of his medical condition. because the article is protected, i would like to ask an editor that have the permission to edit it, to fix it. Zeze62 (talk) 11:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Some inline CN tags
I have nominated the page for OTD, but there are some unsourced paragraphs which need to be verified by reliable sources. I don't know if I can ask you take a look at it. -- M h hossein   talk 13:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don't have that much info  on post-1948 history. I have the Benny Morris, 1993,  "Israel Border wars, 1948-1956", and it writes a bit about what happened on p. 417, note 3.  Also, the sentence "It was regarded as a strategically weak point by Israel, and regularly patrolled by soldiers to halt infiltration of fedayeen and other Arabs across the border." is not well written: it was well known that many infiltrators were not armed (ie not fedayeen).
 * According to Morris, 1993, p. 418: "most of the infiltrators rounded up were seeking to resettle or were visiting family. Most were expelled after days, weeks or months in detention. During much of the period, Israeli policy was to expel infiltrators across borders other than those from which they had arrived, to make their lives more difficult. Occasionally,  the expulsions were brutal, even barbaric, as in the case of the Arava expulsions of summer 1950, in which dozens died of dehydration and hunger. The expulsions often involved sundering apart for a second time family members who had originally been separated in 1948."
 * Morris also have rather detailed account of what happened on the day (on p. 417, note 3), Huldra (talk) 22:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you Huldra, I will check the source. -- M h hossein   talk 08:14, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Pardons
I didn't see any proof that all the killers received pardons Red Gabriel (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Names of some of the disobeying Israeli commanders
I would like to (in the background > Timeline section of the article) add as an example the names of two of the Israeli field commanders that ordered their subordinates to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders. The names are "Yehuda Frankental" and "", so that the last paragraph of the section i mentioned will read:

"No villagers in other villages under Shadmi's control were shot, because local commanders gave direct orders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders by holding fire.[citation needed] Notably Yehuda Frankental, who on his own initiative refused Shadmi's orders. And Jaim Levi, who did not directly refused orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise independent moral consideration. Also, among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Dahan actually opened fire.[15]: 656 "

and not

"No villagers in other villages under Shadmi's control were shot, because local commanders gave direct orders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders by holding fire.[citation needed] Also, among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Dahan actually opened fire.[15]: 656 "

i reference the following sources:

1 This 2008 Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/2008-10-05/ty-article/0000017f-f75c-d5bd-a17f-f77ea6c30000

2 The Hebrew Wikipedia article about the massacre in the third paragraph of its "massacre" section https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%98%D7%91%D7%97_%D7%9B%D7%A4%D7%A8_%D7%A7%D7%90%D7%A1%D7%9D


 * It is against policy to cite Wikipedia or personal testimony, so we can't do that. The Haaretz article is ok, though I'll probably replace it by the English edition. Also you will find this useful: https://kafr-qasim-massacre.akevot.org.il . Please write here the text you wish to add and the sources for it. Zerotalk 12:14, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. I appreciate the quick response Gerbillus (talk) 16:09, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok I couldn't find any English version of the Haaretz article, and the Akevot page is also limited for the massacre itself (and is so irrelevant for the information i want to add about commanders in neighboring settlements)
 * Tough Akevot is a good source so i am going to continue searching in it. I'll update if i find anything. Gerbillus (talk) 16:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The text i wish to add:
 * Notably Yehuda Frankental, who on his own initiative refused Shadmi's orders. And Jaim Levi, who did not directly refused orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise independent moral consideration.
 * The sources i bring forth:
 * This 2008 Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/2008-10-05/ty-article/0000017f-f75c-d5bd-a17f-f77ea6c30000
 * (k=i didnt find any english version of it, except for an automatically translated one) Gerbillus (talk) 16:16, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, all you need do is translate for us here a few sentences or short paragraph from the linked Haaretz article, supplying the author and the date of publication. If the Haaretz article literally translated supports your formulation:'Yehuda Frankental, who on his own initiative refused Shadmi's orders. And Jaim Levi, who did not directly refused orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise independent moral consideration,' then editors here should be able to add it to our article (for you, but also to ensure thoroughness in coverage).Nishidani (talk) 16:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Aight, than here it is:
 * The text i wish to add:
 * Notably Yehuda Frankental, who on his own initiative refused Shadmi's orders. And Jaim Levi, who did not directly refused orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise independent moral consideration.
 * The sources i bring to support my request:
 * This 2008 Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/2008-10-05/ty-article/0000017f-f75c-d5bd-a17f-f77ea6c30000
 * which reads in the 6th paragraph of its 3rd episode (in translation from Hebrew):
 * His lieutenant, Tsvi Shtah, testified that if P.C Frankental hadn't changed Melinki's orders, 'the same thing that happened in Kfar Qasim' would have happened in Tayibe or in Qalansawe, Ibtin and Zemer. Judges complimented Frankental and claimed that if the other P.C, Jaim Levi, would have acted like him than the Kfar Qasim disaster would have been prevented (Levi was a defeated in the Kfar Qasim incident's trial, Tough his involvement hasn't particularly damaged his career: after leaving border control Levi was a commissioner in the general jail services). in three of the four villages under Frankental's inspection there had been no casualties. In Tayibe, a village three times larger in population than Qasim, one elder local was shot to death after refusing to abide curfew and began running in the streets. Gerbillus (talk) 06:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey, its been a while. I was wondering if the Haaretz article is ok enough to make add at the least the names of Yehuda Frankental and Jaim Levi for now? Gerbillus (talk) 20:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note: I have two further comments. Firstly, citing other Wikipedia articles is usually discouraged. It does not really contribute to verifiability. If another Wikipedia article includes the statement in question, it should be sourced there, and you can cite that source instead of the WIkipedia article itself.
 * Also, if you have a conflict of interest, you need to declare it and follow additional editing guidelines. In general, users are strongly discouraged from directly editing articles about their family or friends. You can read about conflicts of interest at WP:COI and paid editing at WP:PAID. Actualcpscm (talk) 17:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, but Gerbillus correctly announced he had a conflict of interest. All they need do is supply the requested sources which, if judged reliable, other editors can duly use to make what would be an edit request. Nishidani (talk) 21:40, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Plus, Gerbillus cannot edit the article due to the 30/500 rule, so most of the strictures of COI don't apply. Zerotalk 02:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * They do not. But i should i disclose the COI in a somehow broader way than the comments i made above? if yes, how can i do that and what are the proper channels? Gerbillus (talk) 18:31, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Just finished reading the COI instructions, thank you for alerting me to them.
 * According to what i read, i am discouraged from directly editing the articles to which the COI apply but can make requests for edits as long as i declare the COI.
 * I am anyway unallowed to directly edit the relevant document so my question is, is my earlier mentioning of the conflict enough to satisfy a declaration or should i put in another place too? Gerbillus (talk) 07:35, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * In my opinion as an administrator you do not need to declare any COI more than you have already, with respect to this page. So don't worry about it. Zerotalk 11:18, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gerbillus (talk) 12:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

The translation of the Dalia Karpel's article in the English Haaretz is Do the right thing, Oct 17, 2008. I can't tell if it is paywalled because I have a subscription, but if it is I can send a copy to anyone who asks by email. I think it is a good idea to list the local commanders who did not obey the order to kill, and since there weren't very many we can aim for a complete list. , can you help with that? There were eight villages including Kafr Qasim. Frankenthal was in charge of four, and gave orders to those four local commanders that prevented a massacre there. Haim Levy was in charge of the other four villages and left the local commanders to decide for themselves what to do (our text has that wrong). Three of them (Arye Menashes, Nimrod Lampert and Binyamin Kol) didn't murder anyone, but Gavriel Dahan (assigned to Kafr Qasim) did. All this needs checking. If the transcript of the trial has been published yet, there is supposed to be a complete description of the command structure. Zerotalk 06:45, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I don't have a subscription to Haaretz so i would indeed like a translation of this "do the right thing" article you mentioned
 * I will get on verifying all of 3 of the other commanders who's jurisdictions had no incidents (I should be able to conclude that before the weekend) but we should probably have an accurate description of the enrollment of events in the overseed area of each, as some of them misinterpreted Malinki's orders, others just happened to have a populace fully abiding the curfew, some conditioned opening fire to their own approval or of their immediate underlings etc.
 * The question is should we add information about commanders whom we can't find accurate reports of their conduct or should we not bother with adding a vague reference of them. Gerbillus (talk) 18:29, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It isn't allowed to post full Haaretz articles here (copyright) so the only way I have to send it to you is email. Add an email address in your preferences if you didn't already, then send an email to me using Special:EmailUser/Zero0000. Note that your email address will not be visible to other editors, even to ordinary administrators, but will be revealed to anyone you send mail to. The details are at WP:EMAIL. Zerotalk 02:14, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. No need to keep this request open while sources are being researched. Xan747 (talk) 02:01, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok, can i get an estimation as for the finish time of the edit? (at least the original content i suggested) Gerbillus (talk) 19:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but that gave me a bit of a chuckle because WP:THEREISNORUSH, especially when it looks like real work. I realize now that setting an "In progress flag" made it seem like *I* was working on the request, which isn't the case (this isn't my area and it seems rather involved), so I've struck it. It looked to me that Zero was handling this, but I didn't notice that they hadn't responded since 1 June. Therefore I'll leave the request open in hopes it will attract other editors. Xan747 (talk) 00:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * alright, thank you. Gerbillus (talk) 16:10, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gerbillus: Can you summarize the edits you would like to be made in one comment, along with the sources? I'll see if I can implement them then. Thanks. ARandomName123 (talk) 16:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank u very much and sorry for the late response.
 * The changes are for the last paragraph on the [Background > timeline] section to read:
 * "No villagers in other villages under Shadmi's control were shot, because local commanders gave direct orders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders by holding fire.[citation needed] Notably Yehuda Frankental, who on his own initiative refused Shadmi's orders. And Jaim Levi, who did not directly refused orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise independent moral consideration. Also, among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Dahan actually opened fire.[15]: 656 "
 * The Source is this 2008 Haaretz article
 * https://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/2008-10-05/ty-article/0000017f-f75c-d5bd-a17f-f77ea6c30000 Gerbillus (talk) 18:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Wording sounds a bit weird, so how about this: For example, Yehuda Frankental who, on his own initiative, refused Shadmi's orders. Jaim Levi, however, did not directly refuse orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise their own moral judgement. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 20:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a lot better.
 * I am not very experienced in editing yet so thank you for assisting me. Is English your native tongue? Gerbillus (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅: Yes, English is my native language. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 18:42, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2023
Fix typo by changing "int school syllabuses" into "in school syllabuses". Daniel R. Adam (talk) 21:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Cannolis (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)