Talk:Kapap

Untitled
So, is there any difference between Kapap and Krav Maga? If they share the same roots the articles should be merged. I would rather not do it myself since I don't think I have enough background in the art. At the very least, this article needs cleaned up though. --Mista-X 03:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There is obviously a difference, but they seem to be closely related. Then again it may just be that they are both Israeli martial arts and that is why they are related.  Regardless I think they should stay separate, and if possible a small segment explaining the correlation between the two arts should be included.  Hopefully someone on WP is an instructor or practitioner knowledgeable enough to tell the difference.  Mk623SC20K 15:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I practice Karate, and I doing so has caused me to examine the doctrines of other systems. Yes Kapap and Krav Maga share many roots and techniques, but each is it's own system still. Kapap is held seperately from Krav Maga in the real world and that should be honored here as well. Kapap should not be labled under Krav Maga. Doing so would be like putting Judo under Akido. They have some shared history, but they are still their own system respectively. If they must be combined they should both be put under a nuetral label like "Israeli Martial Systems". I still think both deserve to keep their own page, if only to honor each system.

This article mentions the Lotar-Kapap system. Are they one and the same? The Lotar article is short without much extra info.Peter Rehse 04:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

OK I changed the Lotar article to a redirect to this one. If someone puts it back please fix both Kapap and Lotar to make it clear what the difference is.Peter Rehse 03:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this needs to be redirect to Krav Maga
"As a historical note, the original name of Krav Maga was KAPAP which was an acronym for Krav Panim el Panim, face-to-face combat."

That's a qoute from the Krav Maga Article, you'll note that source which is cited is actually one of the only two sources that make up this page. Though I have no personal exp with this martial art it appears to me that Krav Maga is the popular term for what the military officially calls KAPAP and that they are indeed the exact same thing. - Arch NME 12:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No, KAPAP and Krav Maga are not the same thing. I am an ex-IKMF (International Krav Maga Federation) member and now a KAPAP instructor under Sam Markey, KAPAP Level 4 and head of KAPAP Europe, and under Lt. Col Chaim Pe'er of the International KAPAP Federation. There appears to be a lot of confusion in the Krav Maga camps, especially outside of Israel as to whether or not there is only Krav Maga and this is simply not the case. Hisardut is taught to Units by Dennis Hanover, Haganah Azmit is taught to the police (not to be confused with the Haganah of the 40's which is a military group). Another confusion to clear up is that the police are NOT a part of the IDF and require restraining, locking and arresting techniques not found in civilian Krav Maga. Special Units need extraction techniques - what good is information extraction if you killed the person using 'deadly techniques'? There is far to much nonsense in the world of Israeli Martial Arts, ironically stemming from non-Israelies. Units train according to their needs - not according to a strict system, and each instructor will teach according to his knowledge and use techniques from other systems such as JuJutsu and Judo. I happen to know that the SAS base in Hereford, UK has an Aikido teacher - does that make Aikido the martial art of the British Special forces? Nothing is as set as this, and anyone claiming otherwise is talking nonsense.

Beowulf101 (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Sam, pls inform yourself a bit better, IDF use Krav Maga and it wascalled Kapap in past. Modern day Kapap used historical name to advert private business. You guys use history of KM and sell it as yours. If Chaim in 21. century is founder of modern Kapap, where is connection to historical kapap eg. Krav Maga? There is no kapap no historical nor modern in IDF, there is Krav Maga the successor of historical kapap. That is a fact and that says all the chief Krav Maga department commanders in IDF. You use false facts and that is not your fault. I have been with Yamamniks and Yamasniks and they all use term Krav Maga when they talk about martial arts. Pls inform yourself from operators from the units, Itay Gil ex yamamnik say Yamam is using Krav Maga, Nir Maman say Lotar is using term Krav Maga. And all the other credible persons from IL said it is Krav Maga. Only few smart guys from IL are trying to do shady business around the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.107.237 (talk) 13:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Krav Maga/Kapap differences
Krav Maga is taught to Israeli army recruits. It's a basic fighting system that can be quickly absorbed and picked up. Kapap is taught to the Israeli special forces and Yamam and takes quite a while longer to learn. Without sounding too biased, Kapap is a more complex system than Krav Maga.

It might be useful to visit this link for a good explanation on the differences between the two....

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/krav-maga-not-alone.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.156.13.13 (talk) 14:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

My apology, but I must differ with you on this. Kapap and Krav Maga have very little in common, and there are several misleading pieces of information in this Wiki-article. For instance, Avi Nardia was a guest instructor in the YAMAM only a few times at best. He was never operational or even completed the 8 month training program. No other instructor claiming to be an expert in Kapap has ever taught the YAMAM anything. Krav Maga (in advanced forms) are all that is taught to ANY Israeli anti-terror organization, that's it. While Kapap is Krav's predecessor, they only bear common lineage. Even in this, it is only because many who worked in early Krav Maga, were also involved previously in Kapap. The Israelis have a keen eye for what will work tactically, this is why even modern Krav Maga evolves. I respect what Mr. Nardia is doing in his revival of the term Kapap, but PLEASE, let's not mix this issue and keep the facts straight. --63.226.23.69 (talk) 22:59, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

This is highly incorrect. YAMAM is NOT an IDF unit and nor is Sayeret Matkal. Avi Nardia WAS the CQB instructor for both special units and Albert Timen really did take down a live suicide bomber. I notice that people who deny this are always non-Israeli and not operational. KAPAP is not Krav Maga and it draws on many more sources - it is also not commercially biased and picks no fights wthi other systems, yet Krav Maga students around the world without the knowledge pick fights with KAPAP frequently. Lt. Col. Chaim Pe'er of Sayeret Matkal is easy enough to speak to in person, yet no one approaches him for the truth of the matter. Also, Major Nardia is a licensed Krav Maga instructor to the IDF, but that is always glossed over in Krav Maga circles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beowulf101 (talk • contribs) 19:10, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

PLs use logic, if Nardia is Krav Maga IDF instructor, is it strange that he is not kapap intructor? Pls show as where in IDf is kapap department? You can show Krav Maga department but there is no kapap department cos it don't exist! Pls show any other present day kapap instructor in Israel?! There is no, only Avi Nardia, does it sound strange? Sayeret Matkal is IDF unit. Chaim Peer in Israel hawe a sport club named Multi Jiu Jitsu! Where is name kapap. Pls just check with officials from IDF and Police and you will see that there is no kapap and there is Krav Maga (or in past historical kapap) There is a letter online from one of the Yamam founders, that in yamam is Krav maga from the beggining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.107.237 (talk) 13:49, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Reference/external link edit war
I have protected the page for 24 hours to bring a ceasefire in the current edit war over the inclusion of a reference and external link to your-krav-maga-expert.com. The version I have protected is the current one, but I have no view on whether it is "right" or "wrong". I'd ask other editors to put their views forward here on this talk page so a consensus can be reached either way.

As there may be only two editors actively involved in this issue, an outside third opinion might also be worthwhile. Any other views? Euryalus (talk) 04:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Pls find the credible person from IDF — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.107.237 (talk) 13:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to Add Reference
Hello everyone,

I am pasting a couple of paragraphs below in an effort to clear the air a bit and hopefully gain some consensus on the use of an external article for possible reference.

To begin with, I wish to cite sources/references/whatever to show another side of Kapap as Israeli's, living in Israel, view it. The common view's of Martial Artists in it's country of origin deserve a place of recognition, in this Wiki-article, which conveys current views on the subject at hand. An unregistered contributor seems content with their citations/references/sources being there, but nothing from anyone else. Mr. Katz has establisehd himself as an authority on Israeli Martial Arts through 15+ years training in Israeli Martial Arts and other Self Defense/Combat Systems and travelling across North America on semi annual educational tours. The page I have chosen to use as a reference, from his site, is not of a promotional or political nature. It is educational and informative. It can be viewed here. It gives insight into the views of current Israeli Martial Artists.

The article I chose from Mr. Katz' page plainly shows Kapap as an antiquated term and that Lotar doesn't really even refer to an actual system, but rather a way of operating against terrorism. This may bother some as they may feel it makes them look illegitimate. I am not sure of the motive, however, I can see where it may bruise one's ego a bit. I make note in more than one comment on an unregistered contributor's talk page that I respect Mr. Nardia's attempt to revive Kapap as a modern term and modern system, but for things to remain neutral, even a slightly opposing view needs representation. If Mr. Nardia's article(s) remain sources/citations or whatever, it should somehow be explained that the system he teaches in NOT the Kapap which was taught to the Palmach. They learned explosives arming and disarming, shooting, radio commmunications, navigation, survival (wilderness and desert), and a myriad of other things all under the term Kapap. He does not teach all of these things. Others do, Dennis Hanover for example, who chose to call his system Dennis' Hisardut (or Dennis' version of Survival). I believe someof the recent activity is questionable by virtue of a showing of lacking integrity. The unregistered contributor does not make any notation as to the reason for changes, and refuses to answer any comments left on their talk page. It leads me to believe they have an agenda which is promotional or at the very least a conflict of interest to the quality of this wiki-article. I am researching other sources to use and improve this article. Please let me hear your thoughts.

I hope this explains my view clearly enough. --KravTeacher (talk) 22:33, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for posting such detailed reasoning. Based on what you've added, I can see some grounds for its use as a reference but can't see why it would also qualify as an external link according to WP:EL. Still, that's just an armchair view and any other opinions are welcome.


 * The page protection has expired, so feel free to edit the article directly once again. Euryalus (talk) 05:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've directed Krav to some reliable sources which I hope he will use to improve the article. In the meantime, it seems reasonable to balance the two competing perspectives on kapap by including both external references, so I have done so. I think the issue is partially a question of balance. The entire article needs to be better sourced, and as that is done, hopefully the need for using either external link as a citation will be alleviated. They are borderline even as external links, especially the promotional New Jersey one that is being maintained and protected, if we are to believe Krav. I haven't been here long enough to know. I believe Krav's concern is also that the perspective on the subject reflected in the article itself is partial to this commercial interest and advocates their view on kapap. Again, the best way to address that is to rewrite the article using citations to reliable sources. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:02, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree re the New Jersey link. It appears the principal purpose of this website is to sell products and services, which makes it not suitable as an external link. The other link is borderline - there's a fair bit ofd simple info and the product sales are more muted. I haven't a strong view either way on that one, but I think the NJ should go. Euryalus (talk) 06:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm getting it, a little bit and slowly..... I am still not sure on the usage of Wiki terminology, such as criteria for External Link/Reference/Source/Note and such, but I am starting to be able to differentiate them. Thanks for guiding me. I will add it as a reference and see how it goes from there. I am also going to continue to look thru' the other links CoM sent as suggestions. --KravTeacher (talk) 05:31, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion for Clarification
It has long been thought here in the US that Krav Maga and Kapap are one and the same, and only that the latter proceeded the former.

What I propose is to use a few sources which will help to show the synergystic relationship between the two as related to terminology. For example; in Israel many Special Forces operators refer to kapap (lower case "k" for a reason) when speaking of tactics. It literally means to meet an enemy in close quarters (similar to the translation of Krav Maga "Close Combat") by what ever means necessary. However, it it not a reference to a specific system or martial art. Rather, it refers to the use of proper mindset, tactics and weaponry available, etc. Krav Maga is used somewhat generically as well in Israel, but refers to specific principles upon which one uses techniques, which must fit inside of said principles. For example: Move from defense to attack as quickly possible, preferably simlutaneously. As you can see, it is easy to confuse the two. However, the clariying point which may be most useful for this article is this. Currently there is a movement to revive the term Kapap, to be used as it once was, prior to the adoption of Krav Maga, as it refers to a specific system. Please remember, it is well established that Kapap preceeded Krav Maga as the official system of self defense for Iraeli agencies. However, this is not the case today. Krav Maga is the system taught to all IDF, governmental officers, police, security and so on. The term kapap simply refers to methods emplyoed by some of those entities.

Below are a couple of sources I propose for use and I would like to hear what suggestions you may have regarding how to use them. A few things I have considered are: 1) Rewriting some of the article to include the above information in greater detail and using inline citation. 2) Add to what is here without changing any current content, again using some inline citations. 3) Simply finding/using external links and allow the reader to come to their own consensus.

Before I list the sources, I'd like to thank ChildofMidnight for sending me some to review, I have included at least one of those sent:

History - Seems Sound and has been used on other Israeli Martial Arts Wiki-Projects. Please take special note of the Extra Information....

Not entirely accurate - This one has a bit of bias, but would balance the article well

I believe this approach will not only help to balance this article, but will lend credence to the revival of the term Kapap as an official system. It will also give accurate perspective to the reader. Your help is greatly appreciated --KravTeacher (talk) 20:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Both sources can be used to reference points in the article, though the second one (the newspaper article) is better than the first as it has greater independence from the subject, ie the "Forward" newspaper has no particular interest in promoting kapap or encouraging people to take it up as a martial art.


 * On the wider issue, I understand what you mean about the differences between krav maga and kapap, and the recent redefinition of kapap as an actual system, but I'm not expert enough in the subject enough to offer any particular view on how correct these points are. Happy to leave that to others who know more about it, but thanks for the invitation to comment. Euryalus (talk) 21:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Name of the article
Per WP:HE, we shouldn't capitalize the entire name of this article. This is true for all Hebrew acronyms. Please raise any objections here. —Ynhockey (Talk) 17:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2017
Please change "Kapap Federation Asia is headed by Master Teo Yew Chye (Kapap Level 3 Instructor)" to

"KAPAP Asia Pacific is headed by Master Leon Koh (Level 4 Instructor), Chief Instructor of Cadre Academy Singapore" because as of 19 March 2015, Teo Yew Chye has been relieved (by Avi Nardia) of his appointment as KAPAP representative and asked to surrender any regional claims over the usage of KAPAP logos and name.

Sources:

Wei Ming (talk) 06:29, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The sources offered do not justify the requested edit. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:18, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

New Source: thumb|Memorandum of Record: Relief from Appointment as KAPAP representative. As of 19 March 2015, Teo Yew Chye is no longer representing KAPAP and revoked of all rights to use the name, logo. etc

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2018
Please change International KAPAP Federation to International KAPAP Federation this is the new website the other website/domain is no longer used by the IKF Ahsoliveira (talk) 19:14, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. —Ynhockey (Talk) 09:04, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Add following to section called International Kapap Organizations
Please can the following text be added about the IKF to the section called '''International Kapap organizations '''

The International Kapap Federation (IKF) was co-founded by Lt. Co. Chaim Pe'er (Soke). IKF is a Israel-based Military, Security and Civilian training organisation offering specialist and bespoke training, as well as operational support to Governments, Corporate/VIP community. We educate and offer security protection through our global network of clubs and training facilities. The training is headed by Amit Himelstein where he is currently serving as a reservist and overseeing the training operations for 6 IDF units. The IKF philosophy is to share knowledge and for this reason we have a open door policy which means we are open to all organisations who are willing to expand and share their knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahsoliveira (talk • contribs) 13:52, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 September 2019
92.37.118.17 (talk) 20:47, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

KAPAP is Israeli Krav Maga, it is a little bit modificated and that's why teachers are saying that is more real and better than Krav Maga, otherwise it's almost the same.

The main instructor for KAPAP is Avi Nardia from Israel. He is the God of this art. The second one is Borut Kincl from Slovenia teach Kempo Arnis (Ryukyu Kempo karate, Modern Arnis, KAPAP (Israeli Krav Maga)).


 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — MRD2014 (talk) 23:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2023
Please insert or accept the insertion of the following

Kapap Australia

Kapap Federation Australia is headed by Instructor Paul Marston (Kapap Level 3 Instructor) who has continued to develop and refine KAPAP since first becoming an instructor in 2007 and opening the first permanent KAPAP Academy in Australia on behalf of Major Avi Nardia and Lt. Col. Chaim Pe'er. KapapWA (talk) 11:10, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  12:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The stick fighting system is a derivative of Vigny la canne
The stick fighting system is a derivative of Vigny la canne as popularized in 1899 by E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu martial art. It was taken to the British Raj by Superintendent of Police H.G. Lang who wrote a book on his variation of the method in 1923. Charles Yerkow documented the method again in his 1942 Judo books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.32.195.189 (talk) 13:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)