Talk:Kapiʻolani

Kapiʻolani Medical Center for Women & Children
There is an article for Kapi'olani Medical Center at Pali Momi, there might as well be one for Kapiʻolani Medical Center for Women & Children, I don't know much about it, other than I know it was before the Pali Momi one, and it is by Punahou. If you have any good information please add this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillyNair (talk • contribs) 03:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * AH! someone made it!! -->> Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women & Children!! -- Billy Nair (talk) 23:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be titled "Queen Kapiʻolani" since that is the proper spelling? Other articles have the ʻokina in their title, such as ʻIolani Palace. I believe this entails a "move" and I'm not sure how to do that, but I feel this article title should include the ʻokina. -Etoile (talk) 06:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't because that not even how an okina suppose look that is just a box. This is an okina but it can't be on the title.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Painting in ʻIolani Palace
Wasnʻt the painting hanging in the Gold Room of ʻIolani Palace painted by Charles Furneaux, not Charles Hasselmann? Jlird808 (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Language
Did Queen Kapiolani speak English? This seems to say that Liliuokalani went along with Queen Kapiolani as an intepreter. But shouldn't most Hawaiians have known English by the 1880s?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:27, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * According to this newspaper clipping, she had an "imperfect acquaintance" with English. https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85058130/1887-05-22/ed-1/seq-9/ Jlird808 (talk) 19:20, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Esther name and motto Julia
Her actual Chrisitan name is Esther. She would not have had her name as her motto that just sounds arrogant and highly unlikely. Kulia is Hawaiian for "strive". The confusion is the Kulia was thought to be her name when it was actually only her motto.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:47, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * You obviously know nothing of the culture and the constant play on words. This is also evident in the meles that they've written including the one Queen Kapiolani wrote in honor of her husband.  Kulia is the Hawaiianized form for JULIA.  You only know of her Christian name, but that wasn't her entire name, which was much longer.  Many Hawaiians, particularly alii have multiple names.  Julia was used because aside from meaning Julia which was her name, it was the common metaphor used in Hawaiian poetry and it fit perfect for her because of her name. Mamoahina (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * There is absolutely no reference to Kulia or Julia in the lyrics of Ka Ipo Lei Manu. Aliis rarely have two Western names. Also notice that the name Julia is never reused by the current Kawānanakoa family but Esther is, I think they would have a better idea about the name of their +great aunt.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Weirdo, rerverting. Anyway, since you are dead focused on going by whatever is available at your finger tips on the internet rather than haul your butt to an actual library to do the research, check out the books such as the one written by Queen Liliuokalani, and others like "Aloha Betrayed" and "How to Steal a Kingdom."  Do you really think that anyone would name themselves after a motto?  Ho'olahui was Kalakaua's motto but he never used it as his name.  What about 'onipa'a?  They were never used as names by any of the kings & queens who used them.  Also check out Kuykendall's description of Kalakaua's coronation.  You also aren't aware of when the Queen became an Anglican & it was then her name was switched to Julia.  But I know your M.O., as I try to limit on how much I share with you.  As it was pointed out to me in a photo of the baptism of King Kamehameha IV and Queen Emma,  next to them was Kapi'olani and Prince David Kalakaua who was baptized directly after Kamehameha IV, Queen Emma, and the then Prince Lot Kapu'aiwa. It was at that time when Esther became Julia because the bishop suggested she take a new name due to the fact that Kapi'olani was a divorcee.  In the past I've pointed out the weak, one sided sources you tend to use.  I would change the information but you use wikipedia as your own play ground playing this authoritative figure in order to satisfy that Ego of yours.  You're immature and have a lot to learn.  You are limited in your sources due to the fact that you don't know how to read the Hawaiian newspapers so you have to use whatever is available on the internet and what you can actually find on the internet.  You frequent facebook forums in order to infiltrate information from our relatives only to obtain information to write on these pages and make it look like you had access to all these privy sources.  You created your own forum to do just that when you weren't getting the information that you needed from the Native Hawaiian Genealogy forums and no one wasn't really praising your as much as you thought you would be, therefore the only solution was to create a forum boasting of your own work in order to get the necessary positive compliments demanded by the Ego, yet unlike everyone else in these forums, you hide behind a nickname.   Hopefully when you do go on to a university (if you do) you'll learn about researching techniques and the validity of your sources and how many you can find will make a difference in providing a story.  Mamoahina (talk) 13:23, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I am sorry that I have limited resources, but I can only work with what I have. Up till now you only said everything I said is wrong and give no apparent source/reason other than that you know better because you know the culture better which to me doesn't suffice. And please don't attack me. I only made the facebook account at the urging of another person. My only sole purpose is to share the videos and articles I have found interesting on the web. I am not have infiltrate any information from your relatives, not a single inch of my writing has come from anything on facebook. And I feel no reason to reveal my name because this is not something I do for a living and I have my own personal live where I don't have to hear insults from people like you. That is all I got to say. Change it if you want but cite it, one thing you clearly NEVER do.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 13:51, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I removed the following entries as they were irrelevant to article itself and were just offensive remarks aimed toward me. I have no intentions of showing this person that I am hiding anything and erasing anything, so if anyone is interest can find the following remarks on Mamoahina's talk page where such discussions are more appropriate.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Name
Looking at it further there seems to be no reliable source giving her any other name other than Kapiolani. The earliest source I see calling her Julia Kapiolani dates to 1975 and the name Napelakapuokakae is never used for her other than in sites that are straight copies of this Wikipedia article. Not is there any source for a baptism change of name for either Julia or Esther. .--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Found a 1920 source for Napelakapuokakae.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:49, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Newspaper sources
















Additional sources

 * Ululani, residence of Kekaulike, turned into maternity home
 * Ululani, residence of Kekaulike, turned into maternity home


 * Ladies in waiting
 * Ladies in waiting

Ladies-in-waiting at the 1883 coronation LADIES IN WAITING TO THE HOUSEHOLD
 * Emily Cutts Judd - Mrs. Colonel C. H. Judd, wife of His Majesty's Chamberlain, was dressed in black velvet, with full court train, trimmed with Brussels point lace, low neck and short sleeves, Sarah Bernhardt gloves.
 * Charlotte Hanks Iaukea - Mrs. Colonel Curtis P. Inukea wore a black silk velvet, white satin front, trimmed with real lace.
 * Julia Naoho Colburn - Mrs. Colburn wore a black brocaded moire, white satin front, trimmed with real lace.
 * Mrs. Lucy Pohaialii wore a black silk velvetwhite satin front, trimmed with real lace.
 * Mrs. A. N. Tripp wore a blue satin train with ecru front, trimmed with real lace.
 * Mrs. Maria King wore a black brocaded velvet ecru front, trimmed with real lace.

Requested move 17 December 2014

 * WP:NCROY says: "For titles of articles on monarchs: Article titles are not normally prefixed with "King", "Queen", "Emperor" or equivalent." Removing it here would result in Kapiʻolani, which is ambiguous (it is the same target you have proposed at Chiefess Kapiolani). In light of this, I don't think the best title for either of the articles is Kapiʻolani and don't think Queen Kapiʻolani is the best option here. Can this be resolved another way, or is a parenthetical needed? Dekimasu よ! 20:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the precedence (or accepted naming convention) allows for wiggle room as this Kapiolani was not a ruling queen but a consort. To be honest I really don't like using the Queen in the title for the reason given above and because MOS for Hawaii related articles also states not to use the position in the title. I agree with and am withdrawing this request.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


 * , this required a cut and paste merge because the proper title was occupied by a redirect. I did the merger and made a request for the histories to be merged. If you are able could you take care of that unless someone gets to it before you?--Mark Miller (talk) 04:22, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Also...the above comment I made is a technical fallacy. Kapiʻolani was crowned queen in her own right along with Kalakaua, which is why there are two crowns. Her crown signifies her birthright as a queen to rule from her father Kaumualii.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * What source do you have for this statement at all? Consorts (who are not queen in their own rights) were crowned in European coronations as well which is what Kalākaua was emulating but that did not give them any monarchical prerogatives. By the Hawaiian Constitution, Kapiolani was not a queen in her own right. She held the title solely because of her marriage to the king and executive acts granting her that title and style. Her descent from Kaumualii didn’t confer her a birthright to the throne established by Kamehameha I and the subsequent constitutions. Kalākaua himself was only monarch by the right of election (his eligibility rooted in his alii descent). KAVEBEAR (talk) 13:20, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I will locate the source but, Hawaii was not a European style kingdom. It emulated it, yes, more and more over the years, but not entirely. Also, you make a lot of "absolutes" as to what is and is not but offer no sourcing yourself. You have a good understanding of Hawaiian history so you know that Kalakaua had to be eligible to rule before the constitutional trigger required the election through the legislature. It wasn't a right so much as putting himself forward as many did to be considered.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:11, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I await the source that states she was “queen regnant” or was constitutionally a monarch. So a few sources stating she reign doesn’t negate the many sources claiming she was a consort. I will return to this when I am less busy with work right now. I will compile the other sources at a later time including a contemporary one from Iaukea calling her a consort and reinsert consort in the introduction. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:05, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Re-inserting content against consensus is not good. But this is a good place to at least add what the sources say however I do not support making any claim as fact when it is a contentious as this. I may not be able to demonstrate the use of the word regnant but there is conflicting sources at to whether she reigned along with her husband as a queen as some sources seem to suggest from the double coronation and the words; "Share the honors of the throne" when she was coronated. Again, not entirely a European style event in total. While I am sure you will return to the article, I only ask that we work together and not against each other's contributions.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I will begin by looking into the sources that use the term "Consort" and your concern of her constitutional duties and title. I will compare them against the sources that seem to be suggesting anything further and try to find balance only if needed or if the idea of her reigning along side her husband is more bias and less direct information from the authors to begin with.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:22, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

On February 10, 1883, Kalākaua officially issued letters patent affirming her in her title as queen and naming her as a “consort”. These acts are signed directly by the king and affirmed by the Privy Council.ref name="1883Patent"></ref KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Uhm…...KAVEBEAR, perhaps we are reading two different papers because what you provided actually says: "His Majesty the King has been pleased to direct letters patent to be issued under the great seal of the Kingdom, granting the Dignity of Queen unto his Consort". What that says is that his "Consort" became Queen by letters patent. It is the same language granting titles of Prince, Princess and Dowager but everything after; "unto..." is not a part of the official title. A starting point at least for more research.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You seem to be misinterpreting my view here. I never stated her title was “Queen unto his Consort” or even that Kapiolani’s title was “Queen Consort”. I’ve been arguing that she is a queen consort (as a term to differentiate her from a queen regnant which only Liliuokalani was). Similarly Queen Letizia is a Spanish queen consort but nowhere in her official title is the term “Consort”. KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:24, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I don't know that I was actually trying to interpret what you said at all. My mistake was using the European term; "regnant" which is a queen holding the power of succession as they succeeded the prior monarch. That does not apply here nor, I suppose, the analogy of Spain since the cultures are so different. I think the answer here may be somewhere in between. When you read the other acts of Letters patent, Liluokalani is referred to as John Owen Dominis' Consort. Clearly they are using the term loosely only in a capacity of partner of the main subject. I do not believe the above source supports the use of the term "Queen Consort" but simply consort. At any rate, I am looking into this further for clarity.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:41, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * And you did claim above; "affirming her in her title as queen and naming her as a “consort”." No, the act itself does not name her consort. The paper ( or more likely the press release from the palace itself) just refers to her as consort. That is not a formal naming.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:57, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Coronation
There is a story about how Kapiolani's hair was in the way of the crown and that the king had to jam the crown on her hair. But I can't seem to find an account of this except in Zambucka and Webb's biographies of Kaiulani. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:27, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

It's interesting to note that Liliuokalani's account of the coronation in Hawaii's Story mentions Anglican Reverend Alexander Mackintosh crowning the king while the official account was the king crowned himself after his crown was handed to him by the Chancellor Albert Francis Judd after it passed the hands of Godfrey Rhodes and Prince Kawananakoa respectively. Wonder if this has anything to do with the political erasure of Judd by the queen because of his involvement in the overthrow or just a lapse of her memory? KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:04, 31 December 2018 (UTC)


 * All these supporting articles we've been writing the last couple of years are starting to be helpful in sorting out the sequence of events. I went back and read the Hawaiian Gazette account of the coronation. Except for the part about Kapiolani having the mile-high hair piled on top of her head, it does go into a lot of detail. Didn't Liliuokalani start her book while imprisoned? Anyway, she and Julius A. Palmer Jr. completed it and got it published 15 years after the coronation. Where was Palmer in 1883? I'm guessing there were no official records to access. Except for Palmer, we don't know who they bounced recollections off of, but she was living with her relatives. And, quite frankly, Liliuokalani must surely have been coping with her own post-traumatic stress. Human beings have really selective memories, so who knows how the difference in the accounts came about. — Maile  (talk) 13:20, 31 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Apparently, Judd wrote one version of the program for the coronation. — Maile (talk) 16:26, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That was his brother Charles Hastings Judd. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:49, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 * That was his brother Charles Hastings Judd. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:49, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Newspaper accounts













Recent page move
One issue about removing queen is the question if Queen Kapiolani is anymore a primary topic for the term Kapiolani than her namesake High Chiefess Kapiolani. In sources using the name as a search term High Chiefess Kapiolani’s prevalence in the sources are no lesser than Queen Kapiolani. Also Kapiolani is currently a disambiguation page. If Queen Kapiolani is indisputably the main Kapiolani of interest than that should be moved to Kapiolani (disambiguation). This should have been done with a move request not a copy and paste. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:53, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That is a complaint and an opinion of Wikipedia guidelines and policy. A discussion at a noticeboard is more likely to provide a community discussion. There are proper venues for such concerns. To be even more specific, you equate a practice of Wikipedia as being wrong and determine what should have happened. I dispute that and suggest you are simply using Wikipedia guidelines in an inaccurate manner. Your concerns are noted and I believe unnecessary. --Mark Miller (talk) 06:19, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The disambiguation page uses a different spelling. I do not believe there is a question of her being the primary topic. I also do not believe there is truly an equal amount of sources on the older figure. "This should have been done with a move request not a copy and paste." You may wish to review guidelines on mergers.--Mark Miller (talk) 16:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

White House state dinner
FYI, here is the newspaper account of Kapiolani's state dinner at the White House. — Maile (talk) 14:00, 5 February 2020 (UTC)



Lawsuit
, can you add the additional information about Kawananakoa and Kuhio here as well? You seem have a good grasp on the details. Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)