Talk:Karađorđe

His Albanian Origin according to Dimitrije Tucović
Jedan od najvaljanijih priznatih predstavnika srpske istoriske nauke, g. Jovan Tomić, iznosi u svojoj knjizi o Arbanasima: Da je od ‘arnautskoga’ plemena Klimenta jedan deo doseljen u naš Rudnik ‘i dao nekoliko vrlo vidjenih ličnosti u narodnoj revoluciji 1804’. Mi ne znamo na koga g. Tomić misli, ali se mnoga ispitivanja slažu da je vodj te revolucije, rodonačelnik dinastije Karadjordjevića, Kara-Djordje Petrović, arbanaskoga porekla! (Srbija i Arbanija, Kultura, Beograd, 1946, p. 43)

Jovan Tomiq në librin e tij mbi shqiptarët shkruen se nji degë e fisit shqiptar të Kelmendit nguli në Rudnikun [serb] e ka dhanë dhe disa njerëz shumë të njoftun në kryengritjen popullore të vitit 1804. Shumë studime pajtohen në këtë pikë: se udhëheqsi i kësaj kryengritje, i pari i dinastís Karagjorgjeviqve, Karagjorgje Petroviq, asht me origjinë shqiptare. Kështu shkruen Dimitrije Tucoviq në Sërbija dhe Shqipnija, 1946, fq. 45. - Edion Petriti (talk • contribs) 12:13, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit conflict

 * That same source you posted says that that they do not know of whom they speak off " Mi ne znamo na koga g. Tomić misli" - " we do not know of whom mr.Tomic thinks" so until you find a source that explicitly claims his origin with proven genealogy,please do not post it in the article. Theonewithreason (talk) 14 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The Karadjordjevitch's Slava or feast day is Saint Clement, as stated in the intro, so the theory is not fringe at all. Edion Petriti (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * And Slava is Serbian tradition, therefore it is, not just that it is not even that certain since there are different theoreis about his Slava, second it is clear that the author is not certain if Tomic even speaks of Karadjordje and third there are noumeros other theories about Karadjordje that emerged during the recent years, you can check on Archive of this same talk page.Theonewithreason (talk) 14 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The Slava is an *Orthodox tradition, and not a Serbian one. I'm going to post it on a Dispute resolution requests Edion Petriti (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, your claim has no ground since it's in contradiction to Wikipedia article Slava. Using false claims won't help your cause.  Shadow 4ya  (razgovor) 11:43, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * With many references to Klimenti/Kelmendi, for example "La ville ou bourg de Clémenti est la patrie originaire de Czerni Georges, la plus grande partie de ses parents y habite, et ils sont les chefs du pays." Edion Petriti (talk) 10:34, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * And other tribes (like Rovcani on pg. 159 among others), not to mention that this author says that Klimenti are Serbian tribe. The book also says that Karadjordje ancestors are from Vranj and celebrate St.Nichlaus as feast day. By posting only one opinion out of several mentioned in the book you are WP:GAMING and also breaking WP:UNDUE. Theonewithreason (talk) 14 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment:
 * The Kelmendi are an Albanian fis (tribe). Albanian tribes are formed patrilineally in most cases and Kelmendi is no exception. The Y-DNA haplogroup/clade of Kelmendi is E-V13>CTS9320>BY62310, a native lineage of the western Balkans. The Petrović come from the Lim river valley, just north of the Kelmendi areas. They belong to a typical I2a-Y3120 clade which reached the Balkans with Avar-Slavic-Bulgar migrations. The Petrović and the Kelmendi are unrelated both in terms of kinship and geography. As for religion, "slava" is just another way of saying "patron saint". The patron saint of the Kelmendi is St. Nicholas, not St. Clement - another confusion which may be caused by their name.
 * The Vasojevići belong to another E-V13 clade. The Vasojevići moved to the Lim river valley as locals were leaving and actually forced many of them out of the region. Goraždevac was founded by people who were forced out of the Lim valley by the Vasojevići. The Petrović come from one of the families which left the valley as the Vasojevići were coming in. The confusion arises from the fact that in the 19th century when Karađorđe lived, the Lim valley was solely part of their area, but this is an 18th century expansion. I think that the sentence  should be changed to  Is this change acceptable to other editors?--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There are sources (Tucovitch, p.43; historical sources by some French commander, ) that state they came originally from Kelmendi, which is not a Serbian tribe. Edion Petriti (talk) 19:17, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Kelmendi is not of Slavic origin. They're a typical Albanian fis. We know that from countless sources and it's been verified in genetic research, but the same is true about the Petrović in relation to their Slavic origin. They're a typical South Slavic family. The confusion comes from authors who didn't know much about the geography of Malësia-Brda-Montenegro.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:46, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not allow WP:SYNTHESIS of sources. If you want to include in the article the information that Karađorđe was of Albanian origin, you need a reliable source that explicitly says he was of Albanian origin. You may not use one source to prove that he was from Kelmendi/Klimenti tribe, and then another source to prove that the tribe is of Albanian origin. That kind of synthesis is not allowed and there is no point to discuss it.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:18, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that the Petrovići weren't from Kelmendi in any way, shape or form.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:30, 15 October 2021 (UTC)