Talk:Kate Osamor

Honorifics
Her mother, Osamor is a baroness in her own right. Kate, being her legitimate daughter, is eligible to be styled "The Honourable". She is not the only MP styled this way - Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Paisley Jr both have this style, as did Lindsay Hoyle prior to his Privy Council appointment. This style is derived through the mother as well as through the father - note that Mark and Carol Thatcher are both The Hon. even though their father was a mere baronet. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 19:50, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I see. Unfortunately this honorific (or Rt Hon) regularly gets added to MPs pages when not appropriate, and in this case was added without quoting this rationale or citing any reference. William Avery (talk) 13:19, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Publicity
British tabloid The Sun has written an article commenting on the | banning of the account that was apparently Kate for editing her own page. The Sun is not a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes but it's widely-read enough to expect this page to attract more attention in the coming days. Am slightly surprised to see the cause for the controversy over edits is less to do with incidents involving her son and her resignation and mainly to do with an old dispute over the correct form of her full name. Typical Wikipedia, I guess... Dtellett (talk) 17:04, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

I removed it it under WP:BLP - it's clearly *true* but it's not verified by an RS which is our standard. Cameron Scott (talk) 20:22, 2 December 2018 (UTC)


 * It's also worth noting that Midnights1 was indef blocked in June 2018, but the UK tabloids have only just found out about it and decided to make a hoo-ha over it. Old news on Wikipedia, but news for the tabloids.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 09:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Hang on a mo, if the item someone wants to add is something to the effect of "In December 2018 it was reported by The Sun newspaper that Osamor had been blocked from editing Wikipedia, etc.", surely the relevant article in The Sun has to be an RS for that? The Sun might not be an RS for the content of its reports, but it's surely not logical to infer that it therefore cannot an RS for the fact that it is reporting them. Lordrosemount (talk) 12:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I added this information with the citation of the Wikipedia page edit history as the source. This is a factual log of the edits made and is clearly a reliable source. This has been removed as well by user Dtellett. I agree with Lordrosemount above; it is relevant, true and verified information so it should be included here. Re ianmacm's point above, it's irrelevant that the papers have only just picked it up (better late than never;, it is still relevant verified information worthy of inclusion on her page. Foxinsocks789 (talk) 15:17, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There's no hard evidence that those accounts were operated by the subject. Effectively we just have tittle-tattle from tabloids that generally leave no mud unslung. William Avery (talk) 15:40, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Like most red top UK tabloids, The Sun isn't considered a reliable source. A bigger problem is that the Sun article makes the claim that the Wikipedia article was edited by Kate Osamor herself. While this is possibly or probably true, it can't be proved (see below). As for the indef block being in June 2018, I pointed this out because the likely sequence of events is that after her son was convicted of the drugs offence, someone in the tabloids went sniffing around for further stories about Ms Osamor.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 15:40, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I suggest you both (Lordrosemount and Foxinsocks) read the articles on standards for Biographies of Living people and Reliable sources. The sources are required both to support the claim the editor actually was Kate Osamor (probably true, but not certain) and provide evidence that this is a sufficiently notable part of her career to be worth documenting in a biographical article. Edit logs and The Sun fail both tests. It's been picked up by a few other tabloids, but we're specifically told to ignore them (And for good reason too, otherwise Wikipedia bios would be full of "The Sun newspaper reported that..." gossip and utter crap) unless there's evidence of it becoming a significant story beyond the tabloids. A brief reference to the existence of a Sun story in a Times article about other more important stuff doesn't count either. It's possible Osamor will make a statement on it in future or some broadsheet author will include it in a big carefully-worded and researched "politicians who edit their Wikipedia" article, but unless and until then it simply doesn't matter enough. It's not like there aren't other more substantial allegations about Osamor to cover anyway Dtellett (talk) 15:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia block for Midnights1
Re this edit: strictly speaking, someone turned up claiming to be Kate Osamor with the username, now indefinitely blocked for WP:NLT. While it may well have been Osamor who made these edits, it is hard to prove because On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog (ie nobody really knows who is sat at the keyboard). This needs to be worded more carefully and with cites to reliable sources.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 08:00, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I suspect it probably is Osamor, but right now the only source we have making this claim is the Sun, and a passing reference in a Times article which is very careful to attribute that to the Sun. I'm generally not a fan of self-referential crap in Wikipedia articles except where it is a major story (e.g. Grant Shapps) anyway, but more importantly it's a violation of Wikipedia's BLP policy to make factual claims about an individual sourced to a redtop tabloid newspaper Dtellett (talk) 13:04, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * WP:AUTO applies here. This saga could have been avoided if Midnights1 had posted on the talk page and followed the advice at Contact us - Readers. Repeated reverts and legal threats get nowhere, as Midnights1 discovered. However, even if a "reliable" source said that Osamor made the edits herself, it would be problematic because it is hard to prove directly, as Wikipedia's WP:CHECK logs don't contain anything much beyond the IP address of the user at the time. Average users are not required to reveal their real world identities to Wikipedia, and the media has made this mistake before.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 13:18, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Question about the Paid editing template
It contains 6 cites for some reason. However, with ctrl-f I get no hits for wikipedia in any of them. Why are they there? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Agreed, these sources don't support the claim that there has been paid editing. WP:COI editing perhaps, but this template should be removed if the sources aren't clearly supporting the $ part of the template. We do know that she has employed her son as a senior communications officer, but this doesn't prove that he is the user Midnights1 or that he was paid to make the edits. Too much WP:OR and speculation here.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 11:51, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Fwiw, Midnights1 has stated that they are the subject:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:14, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * See above. It's actually quite common for people to turn up and claim that they are the subject of the BLP article, and while this may well be true, in most cases Wikipedia has no way of proving it.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 13:22, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Ofunne Olive Kate Osamor
Is there any reason why her birth name keeps being deleted? It should be mentioned in "Early life and career", if not in the lead, surely? — Jon C.  ॐ  13:21, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It was changed by Midnight1 in this edit (and on several preceding occasions.) I suggest the lede be reverted to "Ofunne Olive Kate Osamor (born 15 August 1968), known as Kate Ofunne Osamor..." changed to "Kate Ofunne Osamor (born Ofunne Olive Kate Osamor, 15 August 1968)..." - how do other editors feel about this? ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 13:40, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not actually convinced it's appropriate to include, never mind necessary. Only sources I can find that use that name are birth certificate databases, and I'm not sure that "because it appears to antagonise the subject" is a good reason to suspend Wikipedia's usual policy on preferring consistent reliable secondary sources to original research with birth certificate databases. Dtellett (talk) 15:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The editor in question is indefinitely blocked, and MOS:MULTINAMES suggests the subject's birth name should be included. I support Dom Kaos's proposal, although it could go in the "early life" section if it's felt putting it in the lead is giving it too much prominence. — Jon C.  ॐ  18:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "born Ofunne Olive Kate Osamor, 15 August 1968)[3]", that name is not in the cite. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:18, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression birth names or maiden names still needed to be reliably secondary sourced for inclusion (with [MOS:MULTINAMES]] only advising how to, and as the user above points out we don't have it in the citation. Putting "Ofunne Olive Kate Osamor" into Google returns only this page, another wiki and a now defunct original source which appears to be the personal page of someone interested in peerages. If you go trawling through genealogy databases you'll get a record which seems to indicate the article subject might have had "Ofunne Olive K" on her birth certificate, but I'm not sure it's at all valid to include this sort of WP:OR when the she's universally known as Kate in the many reliable second sources discussing her. Dtellett (talk) 19:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course it needs a decent cite, it's a BLP. If we can't source it, we don't include it, WP very basic. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:04, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "Kate Ofunne Osamor[2]" is in the cite though, which seems ok. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Unless I've missed something, this cite doesn't confirm her birth name as Ofunne Olive Kate Osamor. We seem to be going round in circles in this, and her birth name should not be given unless it is in a reliable secondary source, not ancestry sites or other sources with WP:BLPPRIMARY problems.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:30, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * So, per current sources (assuming Politics.co.uk is RS which I don't know), I suggest "Kate Ofunne Osamor (born 15 August 1968), is a..." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:10, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Ofunne Olive K. Osamor can be reliably sourced – see FreeBMD, which has a link to the original scan of the birth records for September 1968. It's clear she's adopted the name Kate Ofunne in later life. — Jon C.  ॐ  11:58, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, but WP:BLP puts limits on the use of this type of material. It may be true, but should not be supported with primary documents. Also, BLP policy says that if the subject objects, it has to be taken into consideration.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 12:06, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yep, no reason not to follow the spirit of WP:BLPPRIMARY. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, at least people who know how to access the talk page can find out her real name, I guess… — Jon C.  ॐ  17:46, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Update, While I couldn't find a great source including "Olive", there is a good source for "Ofunne Kate Osamor" here: Shakehandsman (talk) 07:11, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Career gap
Does anyone know what she was doing in the 20 years 1983 to 2003? I think that this is of legitimate interest in someone who was and may again be a shadow or actual minister of the crown. Jontel (talk) 06:03, 7 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The profile on her website says "After leaving UEL with a BA degree in Third World Studies, Kate worked for the Big Issue, a magazine sold by homeless and long-term unemployed people. She later worked for 15 years in the NHS." This seems to account for most of that time frame.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:16, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

She left UEL in 2006. She worked in the NHS 2002-2010 (so partly alongside her degree) and 2012 to 2015. This is in her LinkedIn entry which has nothing between her leaving school in 1983 and entering UEL in 2003 at the age of 35. Jontel (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Letter written to judge by Kate Osamor
This is in the Daily Mail today (yes, I know about WP:DAILYMAIL). Previously the full text of the letter had been unavailable. The judge released the full text of the letter after an application by the media.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:53, 22 January 2019 (UTC)