Talk:Katharina Wagner

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:58, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Bravas ?
As stated in the article: Wagner also took a bow after every performance, with audiences split between bravas and boos. Bravas ? is that correct ? I'd say bravos, not bravas... Kintaro (talk) 12:05, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok... as I see, user Dalkeith46 made the change from bravos to bravas... but bravas seems to me, here, to be a loud mistake. If using the anglicised form, singular is "bravo" and plural is "bravos" (not in italic type and used for both masculin and feminine). If using the original Italian form, singular feminine is brava and plural feminine is brave, not "bravas" (just check the Wiktionary). Italian pronunciation of brave must be, I guess, something like 'brah-veh'. In any case I do not support the use of the Italian form in this case and context because, if used, the meaning is that the real Italian word was used after every performance. The anglicised form is neutral and, thus, evokes and expresses the real general meaning, regardless of what real and actual words were or not used after every performance. Kintaro (talk) 12:26, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments about this. In reply, I would point out that the correct convention in opera houses is to use "bravo" for a male artist (singular), "brava" for a female artist (singular), "bravi" for male artists (plural) and also for a couple or for a mixed group consisting of male(s) and female(s), and "brave" (yes, pronounced something like 'brah-veh', as you rightly indicate) for female artists (plural). The point that some people might be unfamiliar with the convention and use "bravo" inadvertently and indiscriminately is, I would argue, not particularly relevant when reporting what happened (or what should have happened) here. Using the "anglicised form" (as you put it) in the case of an individual female is thoroughly inapproprate, so why should we encourage the practice? To conclude: in the article text, my use of the word "bravas" is intended to indicate multiple cries of "brava". Dalkeith46 (talk) 23:34, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Dalkeith46, for your response, but the fact is that, in English, the term bravas, as a plural of brava is simply not in use... Kintaro (talk) 07:11, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your follow-up to my response. I understand your point of view and, indeed, I think you are making quite a strong case - it is a case which appears to be lent a lot of support by such authorities as the Oxford Paravia Italian Dictionary (2001 edition) and Il Ragazzini 2011. However, if we consult the on-line Oxford English Dictionary at www.oed.com/view/Entry22784 we can see that "brava" is listed as an entry in its own right. It is defined as a term of approbation addressed to a woman (thus giving legitimacy to its use - in English, if you like - in the context of Katharina Wagner's reception by audiences at the opera house in Bayreuth). The OED then offers five examples, covering the period 1803 to 1984, of the word in use. The last of these examples is particularly interesting, because it provides us with an example of the word in the feminine plural: ''Alicia de Laroccha .. played a Mozart concerto, won protracted bravas, and eclipsed everything else on the Mostly Mozart programme.'' (Original source of the example: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/22/arts/concert-alicia-de-larrocha-and-mostly-mozart.html - first paragraph). The argument that "the term bravas, as a plural of brava is simply not in use... " thus becomes invalid - a point I'd make with all due respect. Dalkeith46 (talk) 13:05, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok then, let's keep it as it is. Kintaro (talk) 15:24, 5 October 2016 (UTC)