Talk:Katharine Sergava

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The suggestion that a bio of doubtful notability be moved to Wiktionary seems not only absurd, but hostile and disrespectful twd our colleagues at Wiktionary. It should be explained on this page, and IMO apologized for. --Jerzy•t 03:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Reasons she should be included in Wikipedia are: I've removed the Wiktionary notice which I assume is an error. Ben Finn 12:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) She was a cast member in the original production of a famous musical
 * 2) She is famous enough to have had obituaries published (or at least her death reported - not sure which) in two major newspapers

I don't know if this is presumptuous of me, but having now explained the importance (above) and extended the article a bit, I've also removed the other notice. Ben Finn 12:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * _ _ I'm restoring that notice, even tho i am not used to seeing it used, and the original tagger improperly tagged it w/o listing it on WP:CU. I don't think "presumption" is quite the word, but IMO it would have been much more collegial to leave the removal to someone other than the principal contributor to the article. Thus i prefer to hold you to a standard that better supports confidence in our process of collective editing without editors in chief.
 * _ _ The newly added material is good, and does contribute to the evidence of notability.
 * _ _ IMO, the numbered pts made above were already obvious, but there's no harm in making them explicit.
 * _ _ I share the tagger's concern somewhat, & think the article does not yet establish notability. Getting the spotlight for the dream ballet is cool, but it neither makes a career nor i think rises to the "talk of the town" level where a single event makes one notable.  So far, the article does not even say whether she had any true performance career: she certainly had no notable career in film or TV, and dancers' careers are, i believe, so front-loaded (except for teachers and choreographers) that there is a presumption that the early 30's of age are the peak.
 * _ _ IMO, a solo dancer on Broadway has barely stepped out of the chorus: dancers aren't understood to be actors (and the tradition of calling them "hoofers" evokes such things as "cattle-call auditions"). Having also a named role in the same show actually furthers this impression: "We need another live body in the crowd scenes; whatsamattuh, we aren't paying that ballerina by the minute, are we?"
 * _ _ The performing professions are full of artists who deserve gratitude, but in the nature of things most of them are non-notable, whether they delight in the opportunity to practice professionalism in a series of too-often under-appreciated jobs, or grow sick of their work, or make a real choice leave full-time paid performing in favor of family, or better money, or better working conditions. Most of them probably have a role that best serves to justify the whole thing, and that is surely notable with a life -- whether or not it is encyclopedically notable.
 * _ _ We may just not know enuf about KS, or she may, like other heroic people in most walks of life, not rise into notability. --Jerzy•t 18:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I was mistaken in inferring from the name Template:cleanup-importance that articles with the tag belong on WP:CU. That tag is now a rdr to Template:Importance. (And i didn't add this talk page's article to CU.) --Jerzy•t 19:42, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Your points are all taken. However my point 2 still stands I think. Additionally, she has 287 references on Google, which is surely enough to merit Wikipedia inclusion. Ben Finn 20:12, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

KS a little mysterious
As was the case for many Russian imigrants during the early 20th century, Katharine Sergava's roots and life are a bit mysterious. I am not an authority on Madame Sergava, as we called here in the studio, but I studied acting with her from 1995 to 2000 at the HB Studio in Greenwich Village. My information comes from a patch work of her own stories told in class, information gathered by a few of her oldest students (of over 10 years)who also acted as her assistants, and the little bit of corroborative information on the web.

According to Mdme S, herself, her dancing career was not of the prima ballerina, not so much because of any lack of talent (apparently quite the opposite, as she told us that the choreographer of the Ballet Russe called her a "little Markova" - a reference to one of the greatest prima ballerinas of the 20th century), but because of her diminutive size. She was barely over 5' with proportionately short arms and legs - a sort of "anti-Balanchine" ballerina. :-) She was of a more stocky, powerful build, which was long disregarded by the ballet world in her day. Her smallness was apparently perfect for portraying the "ballet Laurie" in Oklahoma! as the illusion of being "in the distance" when not really apparently was desired. Mdme Sergava was chosen, then BECAUSE of her ample balletic talent, rather than being a "hoofer." Oh, since this is somewhat in defence of the appropriateness of entry into Wikipedia, she performed as Ballet Laurie for over 1100 consecutive performances. This was not only a notable feat, but has been surpassed by only a few stalwart souls in the latter 20th century who participated in the record breaking runs of CATS and A CHORUS LINE.

Also, it is little recognized that Katharine Sergava was second cast to Lotte Lenya Weill in the role of Jenny Diver in the 1954 revival of The Threepenny Opera in the famous English translation by Marc Blitzstein. I say second cast, rather than understudy, because it was known beforehand that Lotte Lenya would perform for only a limited portion of the run. In the end, KS actually performed the role more times in revival than Mrs. Lenya Weill. Again, from Mdme. Sergava's, herself, we were told that Mr. Blitzstein preferred KS's interpretation, because she really understood his choice of words and the underlying meaning of his translation. Apparently, Lotte Lenya sang the song as a "cabaret piece," while KS performed it as a dramatic monologue set to music - a very "Stanislavskian" approach.

The mysteriousness spawns from the wayward travel in her life, and therefore confusions as to exactly what happen when. She was born in Russia (she claims in 1909, not 1910) to a bourgeois family whose name is unknown to me, but was NOT Sergava (that is a stage name that she pronounces as Ser-GAY-vuh]. Her family fled Russia to Paris from the Revolution, as so many Russians of that class in that era did. Her earliest dance training was in Russia, as a child, but her formative work was done in Paris. It seems that she studied with Michel Fokine - a seminal character in ballet history - as a child in Russia. It seems that her introduction to America came through her work with the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, which had passed from Russian hands to French and then finally American. But this was always a little murky to me, because her stories often ignored any strict time line. So, when KS danced with the BRdMC, I am not sure, but I think it was with the American incarnation that began in 1932, perhaps in the latter 30s, after Holloywood and before Oklahoma!. Clearly, in the mid-1930s KS was in Hollywood, but by the early 40s, it seems, if I read the archival information correctly at the Lincoln Center Library of the Performing Arts, KS performed at the Ballet Theatre in NYC with the artists of the Ballet Russe - just before she was to start her work in Oklahoma!. KS did do some films in Hollywood in the mid-30s (apparently BEFORE formally studying acting) but it was in NYC where she studied with Andrius Jilinsky, a student of Constantine Stanislavsky, and trained with him for several years, and ultimately had somewhat of a stage career (after Oklahoma!) doing rather oddball character roles from the 40s through the 50s, and a bit into the 60s. At this point, as KS's stage career wayned, Uta Hagen, a friend by that point, asked KS to come teach acting at the HB Studio. After some thought, she did so, and ended up teaching there for nearly 40 years.

At some point in the late 40s or early 50s (I don't really know when), she met a brilliant mathematician and engineer at a party, whose name was Bernard Sznycer, and she ended up marrying him. He died sometime in the early to mid-1990s. Prof. Sznycer's claim in the history books of engineering was as the co-designer of Canada's first and, apparently, only "home grown," Canadian produced helicopter, the SG-IV-C (prototype)[SG = Sznycer-Gottlieb = BS and Prof. Selma Gottlieb], which was first flown on July 9, 1947. [HISTOR!CA: The Canadian Encylopedia; under Helicopter - http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0003692] One of the earlier, functioning designs.

This is a book - I apologize - but I hope it is somewhat enlightening, and not too confusing. It is NOT a work of scholarship, but hopefully, may spur someone on to some of the real thing. -- CG


 * Why not add some of the above to the article? Ben Finn 12:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am obviously very new at this, so I need a little "hand-holding." :-)[read: point to information on how to do so] Also, though, I am still unsure of some of those things that sound like absolute facts above, in fact, I did some further research and have corrected some info on KS and her life, already. And where do I find the protocols for citing research documentation? Thanks. [CG]--Altobasso 07:40, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am now in the process of gathering accurate information on Mme. Sergava from some of her closest confidants and longest students, as well as, possibly, some documentation from her personal effects, as they become available from her estate. As I learn more about the "real" KS and learn about the Wikipedian "protocols," I shall do more posting on the "stub" article. - CG--Altobasso 01:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)