Talk:Katwijk

I've edited this page for language and content. There seems to be a good deal of intermixing between the "Katwijk" page and the "Katwijk aan Zee" page, with most of the information about Zee found on the Katwijk page. It is better to keep these separate. Schildewaert (talk) 08:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll have to correct this: the districts of Katwijk are not villages, but form one city of Katwijk. Much of the information on the Katwijk aan Zee page should actually be located here. User:Pee-Tor (talk) 00:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Despite this amalgamation, the people of Rijnsburg and Valkenburg do not think of themselves as living in "Katwijk". This is not even true. I live in Valkenburg myself and I am very sure that the majority of the people in Valkenburg very much feel themselves as living in Katwijk, even before it was officially merged into Katwijk (in history Valkenburg has always been part of the Lordship Katwijk). People from Rijnsburg though have difficulties accepting it, but even there it is nowadays more and more accepted. Pee-Tor (talk) 00:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I see this as being the page for the municipality (gemeente) of Katwijk. Ideally, this page should refer the reader to the pages on the component towns in the municipality. If the current municipality of Katwijk has its own separate history as a municipality or area then that could be put here.

The English word "town" does not really apply to Katwijk yet because Katwijk is simply a "gemeente" made up of four towns. The word "gemeente" is correctly translated as "municipality" in English, not "town". (See the Van Dale Dutch-English dictionary.)

Someday the various elements of Katwijk may amalgamate as a true "town", but right now Katwijk consists of four villages with four village centres. All four are separate towns within the municipality and they should have their own pages.

But even if they are treated as a single town, you've got the problem of Rijnsburg's long history as being quite different from Katwijk aan Zee. How could you integrate that into a single article? Even Ka/dR's farming history is different from KaZ's fishing history. The article would be too long. Just because the Dutch government has amalgamated these towns into artificial municipalities does not mean that the rest of us have to pretend that the ancient villages of Katwijk aan Zee or Rijnsburg or whatever no longer exist.

BTW, I don't see how the word "district" (streek) should be used here at all. Schildewaert (talk) 22:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Someday the various elements of Katwijk may amalgamate as a true "town" That actually happened around 35 years ago. Katwijk is already one town for many, many years. The fact that an old village that is now part of Katwijk has its own history is indeed notable for its own page, not here. Though much of the information described here and on the Katwijk aan Zee-page that you claim to be the history of Katwijk aan Zee is actually the history of Katwijk in general (the origin of the name Katwijk, for example).
 * "District" was here ment as 'stadsdeel' or 'deelgemeente', not as 'regio' or 'streek'. On www.katwijk.nl they are called 'wijken', though I found them a bit big to call them "neighbourhoods". Pee-Tor (talk) 19:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I see your position about this as being POV and something that is under dispute, neither of which is supposed to appear in a Wikipedia page. You yourself admit that not every village yet sees itself as being part of Katwijk. These villages each have their own village centres, so they simply do not "feel" like a real town. And nor are they officially. They are part of a "municipality", not a "town".

I take your point about the origins of the name Katwijk and the history, but there is nothing that says that information cannot be repeated in Wikipedia. The origin of the name Katwijk can appear in every article that refers to Katwijk (Katwijk, Katwijk aan Zee, Katwijk aan den Rijn and others.) Katwijk can have a full article; Katwijk aan Zee can have a full article. They shouldn't be merged though because of the long separate, histories and the fact that Katwijk aan Zee in particular functions today in a completely different way from the rest. It doesn't make sense to describe Rijnsburg as a former fishing village and North Sea beach resort, for example.

I also take your point about Katwijk aan Zee and Katwijk aan den Rijn being part of the same heerlijkheid. But still, it wan't unusual for a heerlijkheid to include several distinctly different villages.

The real problem here is that the articles on Rijnsburg, Katwijk aan Zee, etc. are not long and full enough yet. Someone should prepare proper articles for these villages. This could then be woven into an article on Katwijk in general (but I suspect it will be difficult).

I also think the irregular and inconsistent references to "town" and "municipality" in the Katwijk article as they now stand are both internally inconsistent (Katwijk is a "gemeente", which is conventionally translated as "municipality") and externally inconsistent (see for example the articles on Teylingen, Sassenheim, Warmond and Voorhout). I repaired this, but someone returned it to its currently confusing state. If anyone agrees with my views on this and we can develop some kind of consensus, I'll return it back.

Schildewaert (talk) 06:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I see your position more as POV but not even as something that is under dispute. The town municipality of Katwijk sees Katwijk as one town (stad) and sees Katwijk aan den Rijn, Katwijk aan Zee, Hoornes-Rijnsoever, Rijnsburg and Valkenburg as "wijk" (see www.katwijk.nl). This is official information. I never "admitted" that 'not every village yet sees itself as being part of Katwijk', only that *some* people from Rijnsburg have difficulties accepting it (since they have never been part of Katwijk until a few years ago, basically this is still the big-fish-eat-little-fish-syndrome). This mostly refers to seniors, and *most* people from Rijnsburg have no difficulties accepting it at all. The 'centers' that you talk about (you probably mean the center of Rijnsburg, as Valkenburg has never had a center) is more like a neighborhood shopping center with a supermarket and some small shops, and form no resemblance with the city center at the Princestraat/Badstraat/Voorstraat/Emmaplein. There is a supermarket and some shops in every neighborhood, in Katwijk as well as in other cities/towns. Pee-Tor (talk) 08:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

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