Talk:Kemp Mill, Maryland

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Possible Antisemitism, Racism and censorship

@Lim yaar Sir and/or Ma'am, I'm concerned by the censorship of this article and the promotion of falsehoods within it. The existence of racial covenants in Kemp Mill is not a maybe or a perhaps. I have seen covenants banning Black people with my own eyeballs. Jack and Abraham S. Kay and others developed homes in the neighborhood and they absolutely used covenants. This is a fact. The article could use some additional detail; different portions of Kemp Mill were built at different times and by different people. But the basic fact that anti-Black covenants existed in Kemp Mill is undeniable. I would add that not every section of Kemp Mill was historically Jewish, so that's also something the article should note. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the previous discussions on this topic in the history? I tried to incorporate even more information on racial covenants and the history of redlining in this article than was previously available.

The current Wikipedia article is only referring to Kemp Mill FARM and ESTATES, not the entirety of what was once known as Kemp Mill over a century ago. Place names change and evolve. Nonetheless I've made it so this article does include that broader history of areas that in the 1920s may have been referred to Kemp Mill but are not today.

My edit to the article also does not make any claim that every section of Kemp Mill was historically Jewish nor did I edit any of the information about this history of Jewish people in the neighborhood.

Are there sources and an edit you'd like to propose? Lim yaar (talk) 12:47, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I find it suspect that Kemp Mill which ostensibly has a large Jewish population and was established at a time when Jews were not even considered White is being targeted as having been developed as a White neighborhood or having used racial covenants without a single source to support that. You claim you have seen covenants but not regarding this neighborhood -- encyclopedias should be based on sourcing not conjecture or hearsay. There is currently a Montgomery County effort to map covenants (https://mcplanning.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=0d26456118d34a14b2d27aec8d6f2b1a). I would suggest waiting to make the edit you propose until you can verify it. In this version of the map you can see there are plenty of neighborhoods in Silver Spring that did not use racial covenants so it appears to me that you are more or less assuming without verifying what the situation in this neighborhood is and I question why (https://mcplanning.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=0d26456118d34a14b2d27aec8d6f2b1a).

Meanwhile, neighboring areas, Bethesda, Forest Glen, Takoma Park, Woodside (Silver Spring, Maryland) have no such mention of racial covenants in their wikipedia articles where there is actual evidence they did exist (https://mcplanning.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=0d26456118d34a14b2d27aec8d6f2b1a) . I'm truly confused why my edit is being accused of censorship and racism whereas I have made the most mention of discriminatory practices in comparison to other articles as well as included sources. I suspect your accusation without evidence may indicate prejudice and selective criticism, if not worse. Lim yaar (talk) 14:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lim yaar Much of the content about covenants (antisemitic, anti-Black) throughout DC and its Maryland/Virginia suburbs was added by me (often relating to neighborhoods that I have lived in or frequented). You can peruse various articles such as those for Roland Park and James Rouse and Rock Creek Hills of Kensington and Woodside Park and multiple neighborhoods built by the Miller brothers in East County and Northwest DC like Spring Valley and Wesley Heights to see the content I have added, or articles I've created such as Antisemitism in Maryland, DC, Virginia etc which discuss the history of antisemitic and anti-Black covenants. I suppose it's easy to conjure up "targeting" by ignoring all the other content mentioning covenants in other communities. I'm currently editing from a house in Kemp Mill that has an anti-Black covenant from 1948. Since I've been out celebrating Pesach, it will be easier for me to look over the article on my computer once I get back home home. That map you are referencing is not claiming that covenants didn't exist outside of the Beltway. That's a strange and amateurish misunderstanding. The area inside the Beltway is simply the purview of the completed research. There were covenants all over the county. As for your tendentious claim that "Jews were not even considered White" at the time, that's your own personal ideological belief. You have a source for that? I'll wait. Wikipedia isn't the place for revisionist ax grinding. Let's not whitewash the history because it makes us feel sad. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 15:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lim yaar I don't have the time at the moment to look over the article for all of the numerous examples of bad punctuation, poor citations, and falsehoods. But I will. This article is about the Kemp Mill census-designated place, which is larger than simply Kemp Mill Farm and Kemp Mill Estates. Kemp Mill also includes Kemp Mill Forest, Springbrook Forest, Tallwood Glen, Arcola Place, and other portions. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 14:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

"The racial covenants that governed some may have extended to the area contemporaneously known as Kemp Mill." It literally says that in the article and that is thanks to my edit. This is much more accurate than the way it was worded before.

Previously the article said Kemp Mill had been developed in the 1950s when it was developed in the 1930s. You can see from the source cited that racial covenants were patchworks and I think you need to follow the evidence about this specific area - not saying you've seen racial covenants existed (obviously they did) and therefore they must have existed in this current neighborhood built in the late 1950s onwards.

The wikipedia article may state that Kemp Mill is a CDP but it also states "Kemp Mill census area consists of the separate communities of Kemp Mill Estates and Kemp Mill Farms". So if you are going to make changes then you should make thorough changes also to the title of the wikipedia article.

I look forward to your edits. Lim yaar (talk) 14:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lim yaar It will take time, but I will have to look into each section of Kemp Mill and who built it and which groups were excluded. I know anti-Black covenants were used in Kemp Mill Estates and Springbrook Forest. I'm not sure if antisemitic covenants were used. If I can find any digitized covenants, I'll let you know. We will continue to look into this together. Take care. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 15:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Several issues here, in some I'm in agreement:

• Before your response I had already re-examined my edits and made an alteration to the claim that redlining would've occurred only inside the beltway - realizing the research here is not finished and in fact I misintepreted the map ( https://montgomeryplanning.org/planning/historic/research-and-designation/mapping-segregation-project/ ).
• In response to my "tendentious claim that 'Jews were not even considered White' at the time, that's your own personal ideological belief.You have a source for that? I'll wait.", I do have some sources, though I would note I also made no such contention in the article itself, where as the original article did:
  • "After the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1948 that the covenants were unenforceable in the courts, whites used other tools to keep their communities free from African Americans (and Jews): steering, redlining, gentlemen’s agreements, club memberships, etc." (https://blog.historian4hire.net/2018/09/24/racial-restrictive-covenants-renounced/)
  • "but more than 10 square miles of Silver Spring and Greater Silver Spring were blocked off to Blacks, Jews, Armenians, Persians Turks, and Greeks, who were also considered non-white at the time." (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43fe10da626349a69ce077ffa9911bd2)
  • Even this research has a layer for racial covenants against Jews, Blacks and Asians -- I think the evidence speaks for itself (https://mcplanning.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=0d26456118d34a14b2d27aec8d6f2b1a)

Does that corroborate my "tendentious" claim? And exonerate me of the charge of " revisionist ax grinding."? Whilst I have my own opinions on the revisionist anachronistic gaze used to create the version of the article I edited, I will withhold any ad hominem allegation as I think this discussion should be fact and evidence driven.

• Your mention that "I'm currently editing from a house in Kemp Mill that has an anti-Black covenant from 1948." I think highlights the reason why I made the edits in the first place. Didn't the original article say Kemp Mill was developed in the 1950s ? Meanwhile you're saying home has covenant from 1948 - that is already an inconsistency isn't it? Furthermore, there's obviously an inconsistency with the current article referring to Kemp Mill Farms and Estates as well as the Kemp Mill Designated place which are not coterminous areas. Place names evolve, so with such charged topics I think it's important to be accurate.
• Whilst I'm dismayed by the accusation of "whitewashing" because it "makes [me] sad" and whatever other ad hominem (frankly) insults - I think it's better to not make assumptions about why I made the edits and operate without unsubstantiated bias. The original article I edited provided context to WAS NOT SOURCED and by your admission this article deserves "to look into each section of Kemp Mill and who built it and which groups were excluded." In today's climate I think an accurate accounting is what is deserved and I don't believe the original article did that. And for the record, I think the truth matters however uncomfortable and I don't think in an encyclopedia the truth is adequately conveyed by claims followed by "citation needed".

Once again, I look forward to your proposed edits. Lim yaar (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)