Talk:Kerista

What does "bro" mean?
The term "bro" is linked to a disambiguation page for the term, and none of the links there seem to fit in this context. Does anyone know what it's supposed to mean here?

'Bro Jud' was John Presmont's Keristan name. All Kerista members received theatrical names at the time they joined, usually from a ouija-like 'alphabet board'. The Keristan names were usually two words, the main word usually three letters. Bro is of course short for brother. I believe Jud's name originated from the old Keristan Tribe from the 60's. In the 50's in New York, John Presmont had been nicknamed 'King John', for his demeanor at bohemian gatherings & swinging parties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.40.145.158 (talk) 02:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Objections to Content (let's slow it down)
Objections about content should be in Talk, not the main page. Thanks.


 * I removed the following becuase it was indeed editorializing:
 * "For the record, most of the following information is derived from articles and periodicals by third parties, which is like having your neighbor explaining what happened in your bedroom last night."
 * I removed all references to specific living people. Since no living individual is referenced by name in the article, I also removed the tag objecting to content about living persons. Here are the references I removed:
 * "...drawn by Even Eve (also known as Eve Furchgott, the daughter of the Nobel Prize winner Robert Furchgott), one of the earliest and core members."
 * "One of the children raised in the commune recently graduated from medical school and is now working in Haiti . A former member of the commune was nominated for an Emmy in 2006. "
 * I removed the phrase "(called 'responsible non-monogamy')". I have never seen a publication specifically refer to polyfidelity as 'responsible non-monogamy.' I am fine with this phrese going back in the article...as long as a reference is given that shows someone referring to polyfidelity as responsible non-monogamy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.214.42.64 (talk) 17:29, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Keristans and Group Marriage
The Keristans did practice group marriage.
 * The Best Friend Identity Clusters (BFICs) meet the definition of group marriages proposed by relationship resarchers (such as Joan and Larry Constantine in their book Group Marriage; see also studies by James Ramey and by Sheldon Salsberg). Group marriages are usually defined as a group of three or more adults who agree they are married or have a commitment functionally equivalent to marriage. The BFICs were commitments functionally equivalent to marriage because they were joined with the intention of lifelong commitment and considered themselves families:
 * "LIL: Right. The family structure that we have is called polyfidelity, and as the word sounds, it's fidelity to a group of people in family units. Now, of the 15 adults who are in our community, we are not all in the same family, so we are not all sleeping together. There's one family of eight adults, another of three, another of two, and there are two individuals who are not members of any family." http://www.kerista.com/kerdocs/donahue.html
 * "BFIC - Short for 'Best Friend Identity Cluster', the formal name of a Keristan family. A BFIC (pronounced 'bee-fick') starts with a group originator and grows to a maximum of 36 adults. Each member joins the group with a current intention of lifetime involvement and a nonpreferential feeling of deep affection for all other members." http://www.kerista.com/kerdocs/glossary.html
 * The word "polyfidelity", which the Keristans coined, is commonly regarded as a form of group marriage in the polyamory community. For example:
 * "Kerista advocated for a highly structured form of group marriage among sexually closed groups, and invented the term 'polyfidelity' for this arrangement." http://www.lovemore.com/history.php
 * "Polyfidelity. A form of polyamory involving a closed group marriage (or marriage-like relationship), in which all adult members are considered primary to each other. As coined by Kerista community (1971-1991), this also included the expectation that all adults of compatible sexual orientations would be sexual with each other, but today many polyfides do not expect this." http://www.aphroweb.net/polyterms.htm see also http://ncpoly.org/PolyTerms.html
 * Other Wikipedia pages refer to polyfidelity as a form of group marriage.
 * "Previous to the Kerista Village experience, people would have likely called this arrangement 'complex marriage' or simply a 'group marriage'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyfidelity
 * "Polyfidelity, which involves multiple romantic relationships with sexual contact restricted to specific partners in a group (which may include all members of that group) (e.g. group marriage)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory
 * Other published sources describe polifidelity as group marriages. For example:
 * "Nearing (1992) discussed polyfidelity (closed group marriage)." http://www.ejhs.org/volume8/cook2.htm
 * The book The 60s communes: hippies and beyond by Timothy Miller refers to polifidelity as group marriages (see page 135) http://books.google.com/books?id=wVLu4F1aOgcC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=keristan+Group+marriage&source=bl&ots=FBb3sqjDFg&sig=-CtApf9OBG3t_2CL4ElvEP03Ni8&hl=en&ei=z7u6TMSYDI6nngf-z_nXDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=keristan%20Group%20marriage&f=false
 * The book America's Alternative Religions by Timothy Miller (see page 425) http://books.google.com/books?id=y3Mt7QlXrRwC&pg=PA425&lpg=PA425&dq=eve+furchgott+%22group+marriage%22&source=bl&ots=Q037Ac6Www&sig=4d7-8qbdTfCLUsJ4jFcBaKtsaQc&hl=en&ei=mca6TIjUDo_9ngea0uzqDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=eve%20furchgott%20%22group%20marriage%22&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.214.42.64 (talk) 10:06, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Intent to include Robert A. Heinlein's mention of Kerista in a letter to Lurton Blassingame
The science-fiction novelist Robert A. Heinlein mentioned Kerista in a letter to his agent Lurton Blassingame regarding popular reaction to his novel Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein told Blassingame that Kerista had actually appropriated several terms from Stranger in a Strange Land in the letter I read; and expressed his belief that the polyamory and some other characteristics of Kerista social norms came from that novel.

I intend to refer to the letter (contained in Grumbles_from_the_Grave, Virginia Heinlein, ed). If someone can direct me to a less thoroughly edited collection of Heinlein's work, I'd appreciate it. Science fiction writer Frederik Pohl, a friend and correspondent of Heinlein's, complained that Mrs. Heinlein had a heavy hand in editing Heinlein's letters, which may conceal some of Heinlein's thoughts on Kerista.

I solicit any comments from other editors before posting this change, pro, con or otherwise. loupgarous (talk) 10:54, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Desperately seeking a source referenced in this article
Hi there,

Can anyone help me find the 2 part article by Mitch Slomiak entitled "The Darker Side of Community" I'm hearing it was originally published in a journal but I don't know which one. Ideally, I'd love if anyone can send me the PDF but any help would be greatly appreciated! It was in Loving More Spring and Summer '96

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbleDeeDo (talk • contribs) 05:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

a link has been added to Slomaik's articles from www.kerista.com. kip 3/23/2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.171.73.73 (talk) 02:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The articles no longer exist on lovingmore.com, though apparently published originally in Loving More. Instead, I find them as a unified article at Kerista.com, "The Dark Side of Community: Hidden Limits to Lasting Groups" as by Nu Luv, with claimed copyright of 2015. If someone wants to note the actual original publication data, fine, but meantime I'm changing the reference. Weeb Dingle (talk) 21:22, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Please leave Robert Furchgott off this page
It is misleading and sensational, as his connection to Kerista was only by blood. He never espoused or in any way participated in Kerista. - kip — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.171.73.73 (talk) 02:14, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

evident gaps
An important article, therefore deserving of better work.

Someone asked me how many resident members Kerista had at its peak. While I had a guess, I thought this article might improve accuracy. I am certain that at one time the tribe was broken up into clades with separate residences on their block; I recall three. Anyway, these were called (in typical K-speak) Best Friend Identity Clusters or B-FICs. Neither version of the term appears in the WP article. This broadly hints that there are other big problems as well.

The article could certainly use some delicate work with a mallet. For example: its members being exclusively heterosexual in a city well known for its large and influential LGBT community. That makes it sound as though Kerista was a walled fortress under siege by the barbaric Homosexuals, accessible only at great personal peril.

And unless that statement is 100% overreach, it raises an interesting question. Namely: how is it that Kerista could park itself in THE gay mecca for 20 years, yet have ONLY strict heterosexual (Kinsey 0, I'm guessing) membership? Did they actively avoid interacting with the surrounding LGBT community? Did they decline membership to anyone thought to be non-straight? Were they simply so uncool that no gay person would WANT to join?

The History section could be broken out into something actually resembling a timeline, rather than a big gray block.

Speaking of blocks, the Commune was quite a sprawl, and definitely deserves to have described all the stuff that was happening there at its heyday, not the least Abacus Inc. which at one time offered training classes, Apple service and maintenance, consulted for networking and for the (then new) boom in desktop publishing – particularly the powerful but buggy and crash-prone "PageMaker-LaserWriter-Macintosh 512K system" – and an agency for computer-skilled temporary employees. There were other enterprises; Utopian Technologies rented computers from the Frederick Street storefront.

Speaking of Abacus, no reference is made to Free Love and Selling Macs (2002). FWIW, the article says "At its height, Abacus … employed 125 people"; again, this inclines me to re-check every claim made in the WP article.

Get rid of trivia, or make it relevant. Kerista adopted singer Joan Jett as the "Matron Saint" of their community. Where's the citation? Was Jett ever aware of this "adoption"? (If so, when?) or would "claimed" perhaps be a better word?

While "Gestalt-O-Rama" is mentioned (once), it's never explained. Neither is the sleeping schedule; it's underlying philosophy should be discussed, if not its use in practice. And there was some odd spirit board thing they had, each person holding strings attached to a central planchette, that they used to seek advice from their group mind or something like that.

Some mention should be made that Kerista was at one point in time actively recruiting men, their young women in the "seduction squad" going to parties and enticing candidates with visions of limitless sexual variety… IF they got a vasectomy and joined the commune. While not so creepy as flirty fishing, the parallel is certainly there and ought to be addressed. Weeb Dingle (talk) 15:12, 16 April 2017 (UTC)


 * As well, better use ought to be made of facts presented in "The Dark Side of Community," particularly as this is freely available online. There are also some nuggets scattered throughout the Kerista.com site.


 * While existence of the "seduction squad" has been denied by at least one former Keristan, proving a negative is difficult at best. I'm going to lay out the affirmative claim(s), then try to balance this somewhat with the explicit denial(s). Weeb Dingle (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Though it's pleasant to see the work that has been accomplished here, I've a couple of cavils. But, in general, the cleanup is a strong step toward improvement, and I am glad to see it. Weeb Dingle (talk) 08:10, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The article is now full of unreferenced claims. Please, if you don't know HOW to properly credit the source for the fact, then ASK.
 * There are some logical gaps that tripped me up, for instance: Entrance to the commune … included … a screening for STDs including HIV. GRID wasn't identified until 1981; the term HIV didn't exist before 1986. Though I can't find the reference, a specific screening test was further years away; by the time it existed, Kerista was circling the drain. I am deleting the HIV claim, as it comes across in current form as gratuitous.

HIV/AIDS Testing in Kerista
The FDA approved the first commercial test to detect HIV-antibodies in March 1985, Timeline_of_HIV/AIDS. With rampant rumors in the SF gay community of a debilitating 'gay-disease', and the widely-publicized death of Rock Hudson from AIDS-related illness in October 1985, Keristans began to discuss the need for STD testing as commune policy. Another important factor was a male member who joined the Purple Submarine who had experiences with an at-risk partner in his past. I was not tested for anything before joining Kerista in the summer of 1984. However, after the test became available in SF clinics, all Keristans were tested, and all prospective members were required to pass an HIV test before joining, beginning in 1986. I can find no published reference to this policy. Nonetheless, in SF in the later 80's - hysteria and fear about HIV/AIDS was a daily reality. -kip
 * You ought to read your own sources: ''This retrovirus would be called by several names … before being named HIV in 1986.


 * (Also note it wasn't until mid-1982 that "AIDS" was proposed to replace "GRID." The terms have hardly been with us sincethe dawn of Time.)


 * Per HIV testing, realize that "FDA approval" and commercial availability are often separated by YEARS. And its initial application was almost entirely to test blood products and donated blood.


 * This is Wikipedia, so I can find no published reference to this policy means you CANNOT claim it as fact here — doing so pretty much DEFINES original research. Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

The source and terms I use are from Wikipedia: Timeline_of_HIV/AIDS. The page clearly says the FDA approved 'commercial availability' of the HIV/AIDS test in 1985. Rajneeshpurum in Oregon had 6,000 people tested by September 1985. The CDC reports 79,100 people were tested in 874 centers in the US by December 1985. In March 1986, federal health officials made public recommendation for 'high-risk groups', including heterosexuals with multiple partners, to get the blood test. Also, I polled the ex-Keristans and released an 'HIV/AIDS Test' statement on kerista.com. The HIV/AIDS Test requirement started in Fall 1986, and all Keristan adults were tested in SF clinics. This Keristan HIV/AIDS test requirement before sex on a sleeping schedule is common knowledge in our social circle and with our polyamory cousins today. It reminds me of the discussion about 'seduction squads' making Keristans look sensationally promiscuous. Keristans were fidelitous, mainly heterosexual, and more conservative prudes than not. To suggest Keristans slept around, or were liberal or ill-considered with sexuality is not accurate. The claim that "by the time it (AIDS/HIV Test) existed, Kerista was circling the drain." is not accurate. -kip Brissed (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

why this "article" needs major overhaul
I've flagged this for Essayism, rather than mere Refimprove.

Since the beginning of 2018 (mid-January), Kerista (with its Talk page) has become the target of "carpet-bombing" edits by a pair of WP users, signed only with ISPs. The latter has been used ONLY to rework this topic, in a total of four sessions since 30 Sep 2017. It is a single-purpose account.
 * 128.171.73.73 - 93 edits
 * 66.91.142.162 - 43 edits

The former was lightly used since its 2012 origin, with a total 36 edits through 2016. After a hiatus, it was reactivated mid-August 2017, and has since made exactly one non-Kerista edit. It has become a single-purpose account.

It's an easy guess that both accounts belong to one person, so creeps up toward sock-puppetry.

The article is now stuffed full of unsupported trivia and pointless folksiness, for instance Jud Presmont doddering around his "modest Victorian." As well, it has been sanitized, such as removing the claim made in the Wired article that
 * There was also a "seduction squad": attractive girls who recruited new members at parties. Men were invited to sleep with them, but only if they first joined the commune, which meant having a vasectomy.

Reference to this is buried at the end, plaintively calling it a "disputed account" yet offering no hints as to any disputer.

I might eventually weed through the changes made and determine what needs to be cut outright.

The blockquotes buried in References will have to go. Anyone who wants to preserve them should at least learn about Footnotes. Even at that, there's much too much "borrowed" from Cummings. Weeb Dingle (talk) 16:50, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Fortunately, history will show only edits of my own words, gentle-weeb. I sanitized no words of others. I did not remove your 'seduction squad' compromise statement, at least intentionally. However, I dispute that any Keristan broke fidelity to increase membership. I request any ex-Keristan to confess and confirm sleeping with a non-Keristan to bring in new members.

I dispute carpet-bomb advocacy, sockpuppetry, or attempting to disguise my identity. I removed the offensive doddering and the more trivial descriptions. I found the Saint Joan citation in SPIN - you requested. Joan Jett was informed and happy for her sainthood. -kip Brissed (talk) 21:53, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Categories
This article is in the category "Intentional Communities in New York (state)" because it was founded there in 1956. But the article says that from 1971 to its end in 1991 it was based in San Francisco, so it also belongs in the category "Intentional Communities in California". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.20.113 (talk) 22:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

To add to article
Basic information (which anyone reading this article might expect to find here) to add to this article, in order to make it more properly encyclopedic: the etymology/origin of the word "Kerista." 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:01, 13 May 2023 (UTC)