Talk:Killing of Hind Rajab

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 February 2024
The page refers several times to Israeli forces killing Hind, while all the cited sources state that there was no clear evidence of that and only write she was "found dead" or "killed." The Gazan Red Crescent did not provide journalists with clear evidence that Israel either targeted the Ambulance or that Hind was there. In this war, there are numerous lies, and it will be far for the objective to state as a fact that Israelis killed her. Amitport2 (talk) 08:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 15:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It's false that the Red Crescent provided no evidence. They have released audio of the Rajab girls describing themselves as being shot at by a tank. No force in Palestine operates tanks but the Israeli army. So we have direct, eyewitness testimony Israel killed the Rajab family. The car where Hind was found was also in Israeli-controlled area. As for the many lies being told in this conflict, they have overwhelmingly come from the pro-Israeli side... Peleio Aquiles (talk) 23:12, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * And what does the audio prove exactly? She was a little girl, she could be confused and mistakenly say "tank" instead of "gun", for example, without clearly understanding what is going on around her. This is not reliable evidence given the context and could just be circumstantial evidence at best. Triola940 (talk) 16:08, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The audio, combined with satellite imagery that showed IDF tanks blocking the street exit, then the family's vehicle found destroyed by tank fire.
 * I'm sure a super secret arm of Hamas has the same exact tanks as the IDF though, and instead of using them on invaders, they decided to use them on a six year old.
 * Genius. 2600:1700:8310:4420:80AA:1C5C:4021:87C0 (talk) 05:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 February 2024
The word 'deliberately' is just a little loaded... I think should still be used in the lead because it is what the PRCS is reporting, but it would be better to have it read after 'according to the aid group'. Just feels like it helps maintain a more neutral tone. Also, it makes the sentence a little more succinct.

Cowlan (talk) 02:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Seems to have already been done. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Including Contextual Audio
I think it would be appropriate to include the related audio of Hind (in the section where the location and photo is). The source audio is from the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) - https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1753434287402004548

I also think it would be appropriate to include audio from her cousin, Layan Hamadeh, in the background section. Same source - https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1752277801590276397

Here's a secondary source to verify the validity of each audio - https://www.thedailybeast.com/listen-missing-gaza-girl-hind-rajab-trapped-in-car-in-israeli-shoot-out 108.92.161.173 (talk) 03:13, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


 * We can't use them without family permission. Not sure they would be of much use on English Wikipedia anyway. You can possibly check with Commons whether they'd accept it. — kashmīrī  TALK  03:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Background
Too much talk about the so-called war, but nothing about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict??

Discovery of her body two _weeks later!_ Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 February 2024
Please add: Relatives eventually found Hind’s body inside the car alongside the dead bodies of five of her family members and the bodies of the two rescue workers 12 days later, once the Israeli forces had withdrawn from the area.
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done The information is in the article now 『π』  BalaM314  〘talk〙  04:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Sources: 93.211.214.241 (talk) 13:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.democracynow.org/2024/2/12/headlines/6_year_old_hind_rajab_found_killed_by_israeli_forces_2_weeks_after_desperate_plea_to_aid_workers
 * https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/12/how-6-year-old-hind-rajab-was-killed-as-palestinian-red-crescent-tried-to-rescue-her_6517073_4.html

5 or 6 years old?
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6152/Gaza:-Initial-findings-show-Israeli-army-purposefully-kills-a-child,-uses-an-American-made-missile-to-target-her-rescue-crew [Https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/06/middleeast/israel-gaza-hind-missing-girl-prcs-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/06/middleeast/israel-gaza-hind-missing-girl-prcs-intl-hnk/index.html]

Multiple reliable sources are stating that Hind was 5 years old at time of death, not 6. The CNN story specifies a correction to her age. Aleaniled (talk) 15:56, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * ✅ — kashmīrī  TALK  01:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Number of cousins

 * What I think should be changed (format using textdiff):
 * Why it should be changed: There seems to be some confusion between outlets about whether she was traveling with four cousins including Layan or four cousins in addition to Layan, but this Washington Post article suggests there were four, and gives their names and ages.
 * References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

NomadicThora (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)


 * ✅ Ok123l (talk) 08:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Uncensored audio: a link to it
I could not find uncensored audio of this incident in any of the usual sources, such as YouTube, news channels and so on. Especially the most impactful/relevant part, where the shots are fired that killed Hind Rajab. I don't have time to edit the page and am no longer sure of wikipedia's editing rules. Nevertheless, in case it is found useful, here is a source. It may only be available to Australians, or it may not. The story is at 4m7secs: https://iview.abc.net.au/video/FA2335H003S00 The program is MEDIA WATCH, a program on the public broadcaster of Australia (ABC) that monitors and critiques the media. It has been around for decades, is known for its attempts to be balanced, and is respected by the public. Accurate Nuanced Clear (talk) 15:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Add audio link of the phone call
Add audio link of the phone call to the article BazookaIce (talk) 20:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Read above at . — kashmīrī  TALK  01:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2024
Please add that the Israel Defense Forces launched a preliminary investigation that claims they are not af fault as they weren't present in the area at the time. See source here: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-probe-indicates-no-troops-were-in-area-where-6-year-old-gazan-girl-was-killed/ 147.235.201.53 (talk) 20:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * adding.  nableezy  - 15:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Killing was not deliberate and seems to not be IDF at all
Please change Israeli forces deliberately attacked the ambulance sent to rescue her,to Hamas, a terrorist organisation, incorrectly accuses the IDF of attacking the ambulance

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-probe-indicates-no-troops-were-in-area-where-6-year-old-gazan-girl-was-killed/ 2A02:14F:173:16F4:0:0:14B0:274A (talk) 15:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Because the IDF says so?  nableezy  - 15:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The IDF is not a reliable source. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The most mendacious army in the world. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 13:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This is just your opinion, Peleio. Someone else could say this is the most moral army in the world. What makes you reliable source? Triola940 (talk) 16:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It is clear (well maybe not) that they are being facetious. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 18:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Israeli investigation
Not sure why you reverted my edit here, instead of simply replacing "ambulance" with "vehicle". The quote needs to be reduced and transformed into normal text. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Ah, my apologies, I didn't realise that was what you were trying to do, admittedly I did look at the edit rather quickly. CommissarDoggoTalk?  17:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Reverted it back now and made that change. CommissarDoggoTalk?  17:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

A couple items
1. With all sympathy (this is a horrible, sad story that deserves all appropriate coverage), but the tabloid style use of quotations her appeals for help on an emergency call is not appropriate (nor significant enough) for the lede. The length of the call is what's notable - not quotations of a child asking for help. It is also already in the body of the article in its appropriate section covering the timeline.

2. The items pertaining to South Africa @ ICJ are not relevant to this article. Mistamystery (talk) 23:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Widely reported on quote by RS and is significant enough for the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:40, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

She was six-year-old
Even the source says she was six-year-old, someone changed the title and added false information. 2A00:A041:E62F:5500:F023:D29D:AA15:F925 (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Npov
"According to the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), Israeli forces deliberately attacked the ambulance sent to rescue her, killing two PRCS members, Yusuf Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun, despite the fact that Israel was notified of its dispatch. Israel has said that its troops were not near the vehicle in which Hind was killed. Al Jazeera disputed the finding, reporting that there had been three Israeli tanks in the area at the time; a fact confirmed by later Washington Post investigation based on satellite imagery."

The paragraph does not include a mention of times because there is a difference between an initial investigation and an investigation done one or two months later because often the information accumulates as one digs deeper. I offer:

"According to the Palestinian Red Crescent, Israeli forces deliberately attacked the ambulance sent to rescue 6-year-old Rajab, and killed the two paramedics in it, Yosuf Zaino and Ahmed al-Madhoun, despite the fact that Israel had been notified of its dispatch.[5] According to the IDF's initial investigation, there were no soldiers in the area where the girl was killed; [7] about a month later, Al-Jazeera disputed the claim, and reported that there were three Israeli tanks in the area at the time; [8] a fact that was confirmed by a later investigation More of the Washington Post based on satellite images. [1] The investigation of the incident was transferred in February to the fact-checking mechanism of the General Staff, which was described as an independent military body responsible for investigating unusual events during the war."

I am basing myself on the dates in the articles and Magid's Israel Times article 2.55.51.116 (talk) 10:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Npov
'During the Israel–Hamas war and the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israel issued evacuation orders. South Africa brought Israel to the International Court of Justice on 29 December 2023 for genocide, and on 26 January 2024, the Court issued an Order instructing Israel to take all measures to prevent any acts than can be considered genocidal.'

I am not clear about the connection between the text and the event and it is not based on a source.

i offer to write, based on Washington post: "on Oct. 7, 2023, when Hamas militants stormed border communities in southern Israel, killing about 1,200 people, including civilians in their homes and young people at a concert, and taking at least 240 hostages back to Gaza. The assault drew a response from Israel, which insists its campaign is necessary to destroy Hamas’s military capabilities.

More than 75 percent of Gaza’s population of 2.2 million has been displaced by the fighting, many residents multiple times, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). The Hamada family fled their houses; some went south, while others sheltered closer to home, in the nearby Tel al-Hawa neighborhood in western Gaza City." 2.55.51.116 (talk) 11:08, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

BAD EDITING
Please fix this: "Rajab and her relatives were killed in a "planned execution" by the Israeli army, who also killed the Red Crescent paramedics sent to rescue the young girl with a US-made missile"

"sent to rescue the young girl with a US-made missile"???

Please change the passage to read "...by the IDF using a US-made missile, ...sent to rescue Rajab."

2603:6010:4500:7061:D817:23BC:B75E:C677 (talk) 11:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


 * ✅, thanks. — kashmīrī  TALK  09:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2024
In the "Impact" section in the last paragraph, change "discusssed" to "discussed". TunaLP06 (talk) 12:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Done. ResonantDistortion 14:55, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 May 2024
In May 2024, Macklemore released "Hind's Hall", a protest song in support of the 2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses, with all proceeds donated towards UNRWA. Subins2000 (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ an initial addition, though more may be able to be added from more content in the source. B3251 (talk) 11:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2024
In the Background section, change:

"On 7 October 2023"

to

"After 57 years of occupation ensuing from the Six-Day_War, Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, 2023."

This singular extra line provides necessary background, as the sensitive nature of this article requires us to do some journalistic due diligence. You and I know, and deceased Palestinian kids like Hind also knew, that none of this started on October 7th. Thank you. ARationalPerson (talk) 06:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Disagree. I don't believe we need to mention 7 October either. It's sufficient to say that the event took place during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip. — kashmīrī  TALK  08:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Please note that Wikipedia articles must maintain a neutral point of view, and that changes will not be made in an effort to right great wrongs. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 16:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2024
You stated that she was killed during the israel hamas war, and you completely ignored that the israel forces during their genocide on the Palestinians they killed this innocent girl with no care or mercy, so you should write that in an honest way not like the propaganda media trying to polish the war crimes and the genocide as if she and all the other thousands killed were by mistake and collateral damage The corrector 1111 (talk) 09:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * ❌ Wikipedia is not a soapbox and must maintain a neutral point of view, lest lending undue weight to certain controversies. Wikipedia also prioritizes verifiability over truth. You also didn't state what exactly you wanted to be changed. Aydoh8 (talk &#124; contribs) 00:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2024 (2)
There is a grammatical error in the following sentence:

"According to the organization this was a deliberate attack by the Israel Defense Forces, and despite the fact that Israel was notified of its dispatch."

The "and" is unnecessary because the second clause modifies the first clause and is dependent on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BurpleFrog (talk • contribs) 12:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ I reordered the sentences to put the second clause with the preceding sentence. Saying "According to the organization this was a deliberate attack by the Israel Defense Forces despite the fact that Israel was notified of its dispatch." sounds like "even though Israel was notified, the organization said it was a deliberate attack", which doesn't make much sense. Liu1126 (talk) 16:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The issue with your change is that it puts in Wikivoice that Israel was notified; sources generally attribute this claim. In addition, your phrasing implies in Wikivoice that it was targeted by the IDF; again, this is a claim that is generally attributed by sources. BilledMammal (talk) 17:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think you're right. Is current version better? Otherwise we could go with the original suggestion, though I still think it's a bit unclear. Liu1126 (talk) 17:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks; the current version looks good. BilledMammal (talk) 17:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Forensic Architecture Investigation
Please discuss the contents of this article in this wiki page https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-of-hind-rajab ICG66 (talk) 06:13, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Updated the article accordingly. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Lede
Would you agree that this lede paragraph be summarized into this?

"Israel claimed that there weren't any troops present in the neighborhood and denied carrying out the attack. However, analysis of satellite images showed that Israeli tanks were in the vicinity of the site at the time. Further investigation showed shell fragments of an American-provided projectile near the PRCS ambulance, and that the size of the hole in it was consistent with Israeli tank rounds. Finally, a visual evidence-based Forensic Architecture investigation concluded that an Israeli tank had likely fired 335 rounds on the car that Hind Rajab and her family had been in, and that tank operators would have been able to see that the car had civilians including children in it. It also concluded that an Israeli tank had also likely attacked the ambulance that came for Hind."

to

"Israel claimed that there weren't any troops present in the neighborhood and denied carrying out the attack. However, investigations including one by Forensic Architecture relying on satellite imagery and visual evidence concluded that an Israeli tank had likely fired 335 rounds on the car that Hind Rajab and her family had been in, and that tank operators would have been able to see that the car had civilians including children in it. It also concluded that an Israeli tank had also likely attacked the ambulance that came for Hind." Makeandtoss (talk) 12:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * It's there, with a few changes. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 13:16, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you incorporate updated info?
According to Al Jazeera: "Hamada said Rajab told her she could not speak because her mouth was bleeding, but she did not want to wipe it so her mother would not be troubled with cleaning it." Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/23/israeli-tank-fired-at-hind-rajab-family-car-from-metres-away-investigation 24.87.14.45 (talk) 22:31, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 June 2024
Change title "Killing of Hind Rajab" to "Murder of Hind Rajab". The current title is too vague. A more informative word than "killing" here would be "murder". There is plenty of evidence to show that this was not only killing; it was also murder. I will explain this based on the semantics of the word "murder" as a PhD in linguistics with a specialization in semantics. For one thing, forensic investigation of the incident described in this article has already shown that the killing of multiple people in the car where Hind died was extremely likely to have been intentional. Second, given the intentionality of previous incidents of a very similar nature that happened quite recently, a pattern has been established showing that previous incidents of this kind were intentional, and so based on this pattern the killing was very extremely likely to have been intentional. Thus, the intentionality condition of murder has been met. Third, the premeditation condition of murder has been met. It is clear from forensic analysis of the incident that the firing of a tank into a car known to contain people who would thus die (and were intended to be killed) was carefully orchestrated and planned. There was sufficient time to premeditate the killing. Furthermore, the pattern established by recent events of the same nature that have clearly been premeditated makes it extremely likely that this killing was premeditated as well. Or one might say the pattern of killing of this kind has itself been premeditated, that is, to continue performing similar actions including killing in the same manner of the same type of human targets. Corgimaster4 (talk) 08:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — kashmīrī  <sup style="color:#80f;font-family:'Candara';">TALK  11:34, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Killed by Hamas
" along with six family members and two paramedics coming for her rescue, by Israeli forces during the Israel-Hamas war received widespread coverage." Should be changed, 1. it has not source and 2. she was killed by Hamas. 2601:18C:9083:C380:A33B:65DF:1C26:BE3E (talk) 23:39, 19 July 2024 (UTC)