Talk:Kosen judo

There were some edits that changed the essence of this article. I´ve done a lot of research to write this. Some points to consider:


 * Kosen Judo is regarded as a style of judo, even today (see OSAEKOMI by Katsuhilo Kashiwazaki)
 * Kosen Judo is not "schoolboy" judo, it´s is interschool competition (universities)
 * The details aren´t know for sure, but Kano had to PERSUADE Tanabe to taught his students his ryu newaza. I think "persuaded" is best than "invited" to show the real feeling about this
 * Maeda taught Kosen judo to the gracies. He taught almost newaza only. Carlos Gracie accounts tells that he never taught them throws, although he demonstreded some eventually
 * Kano did not created Budo. I think it was best to took this out
 * I don´t think people start doing more newaza only because it is easier, but rather because it is more effective if you do not have to apply tachiwaza befored going to newaza, so there is no point dismissing Newaza only judo (not even Kano dared doing that for fear of being incorrect)
 * Newaza was well researched by 1925 PARTICULARLY by the Kosen students (see OASEKOMI by Kashihiko Kashiwazaki again, page 14)
 * It was the specialized press that brouht attention to the actual roots of BJJ in Judo. The conventional press still tell half-truths about BJJ, claiming too much for the Gracies and too litle for Judo

If Kosen Judo is not a style of Judo, then BJJ ins´t either. The difference is in emphasis, so will we start to call both Judo?

Loudenvier 3 July 2005 22:17 (UTC)

Focus of the article
Having the Gracies mentioned in several places in the article including its very beginning, plus letting the BJJ having a separate section in the end, IMO makes it look slightly BJJ-biased. Kosen judo should not necessarily be seen and described through the eyes of those interested in BJJ, it is not neutral. // Habj 08:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * BJJ has more world recognition than Kosen Judo. Perhaps the only people who know Kosen Judo are Judoka who were interested in Judo history, japanese Judoka, and, perhaps, a few BJJers who did not claim that their origin lies in a mythical Indian martial art. The book from Kashiwazaki (Judo Masterclass Techiniques: Osaekomi) also has a strong point towards the link between Kosen Judo and BJJ. Maeda was a Kosen Judoka. All this is not biased towards BJJ, or detrimental to Kosen Judo, to the contrary, it links a somewhat unkwnown sect of Judo to the very popular Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. Why it´s wrond? If you happen to have more info on Kosen history, etc, just add it to the article, but just don´t criticize the link of Kosen with BJJ just because it seems that you do not like any emphasis on BJJ. Regards. Loudenvier 15:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Man, I have myself (re)read the article after you pointed it was biased. I can´t think that way even trying hard. This article is very informative and make an interesting link with BJJ. The general press tells half truths about BJJ origins and etc, trying to increase the importance of the Gracies (I´m not saying they aren´t important, I´m just saying that credits to Maeda and Kosen judo must also be made clear). This article is meant to dismistify it, showing that the roots from BJJ are in KOSEN JUDO. It does not dismiss Kosen Judo, it just shows the truth. Why do you complain to that? Loudenvier 15:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * An article about kosen judo should not be meant to dismistify halftruths about BJJ, it should focus on Kosen judo itself. Generally I think the article has good content, and I think the slight rearrangemant that I just made make the main parts of it more focussed on actual Kosen judo and keeping the BJJ and Gracie part in half rather than whole the article. I hope I did not remove anything that was not mentioned in other parts of the article - if so, that was a mistake. // Habj 02:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It wasn´t meant to dismistify BJJ, only to show the strong link between Kosen Judo and BJJ, which is undeniable. You´re edits on the introduction were good but I thought they were a litle biased towards only removing the link between Kosen and BJJ and not on adding new content to the article itself. Overall your edits made the article more organized, so a few copy-editing will even make it better. That´s what wikipedia is: colaborative "anarchical" work :-) regards. Loudenvier 01:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Kosen Judo not a precursor to BJJ
The article claims in the first paragraph: "Kosen judo was most influential to Brazilian jiujitsu." However, the article itself shows this to be untrue. It claims that Kano began Kosen judo in 1914, yet Maeda left for Brazil in 1915. No one can believe that Kosen judo was so well-established as a separate form within a year that it was the precursor to BJJ! Unless someone can provide a citation for this idea and then rewrite it so that it is expressed correctly, this erroneous sentence ought to be removed. Spoxjox 02:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Where exactly does it say that Kosen wasn't made till 1914? It seems to imply that it came into being sometime between 18XX and 1914 if I read it right. FlowWTG 18:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * To answer FlowWTG: "In 1914 Kano organized all the Japan High School Championships at Kyoto Imperial University. This sportive style of competition was formally called Kosen (high school)." Spoxjox 18:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * People, Kosen Judo was not an influence on BJJ creation as it seems at first because Maeda wasn't a Kosen judoka. Kosen judo started later. But Kosen Judo techniques (Sangaku-Jime for example - triangle choke) came to Brazil later in the 1920s, 30s and 40s and were incorporated in BJJ. It's fair to change the article to remove its influence in BJJ. In fact BJJ and Kosen Judo are more similar to each other rather than one being an influence in the founding of the other. Regards Loudenvier 19:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

+++BACK TO KOSEN JUDO+++

Kosen Judo *DID NOT* start in 1914. That is the date of the first Kosen Taikai match at the Imperial University in Tokyo. There were many matches before that, big ones around 1906-1910. During this time Dr. Kano decided to change competition rules to give more stand up time which culminated in the competition rule changes of 1925. However, Dr. Kano created the Kosen Rule allowing the Kosen schools to compete in their way. This has little to do with the first Kosen Taikai in 1914 at the imperial university.

So let's get this article back on track, okay!

The name Kosen did come later because of guys like Maeda. Kosen Judo comes from the Judo that developed because of Tomata, Maeda and others. This was an intricate ground fighting system that employed many of the same techniques used in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu today. This is the Form of Judo that was being used by the Kodokan to defeat the other jiu jitsu schools at that time. This was the era that Maeda came from and he was the one that taught Carlos Gracie. There are Kosen videos out from around the time Helio Gracie was teaching in Brazil and you can see the techniques are almost identical. I would say that Kosen Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu came out at about the same time. In essence you could say Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comes from Kosen Judo but the Judo the Gracie’s learned was not formally called Kosen. In fact the Gracies didn’t even know they were learning Judo at that the time that’s why they call it Gracie Jiu Jitsu. You know what funny is, all this enfaces is placed on the Gracie’s and when you try to connect the Gracie’s to Judo, allot of Gracie practitioners get very angry and defensive. The Gracie weren’t even the only ones that learned from Maeda at that time. Infect the Gracie’s aren’t the only ones that claimed to have the name Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. There was another Oswaldo Fadda who had developed his own Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and he has no link to the Gracie’s. He is linked to Maeda. Anyone who follows or trains BJJ has heard of the team Nova Unaio, well that team come from Fadda’s lineage not the Gracie. Same Jiu Jitsu same teacher Maeda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.7.46.126 (talk) 19:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Mekugi 19:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

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