Talk:Kyiv/Archive 2

Modern City
Is there any chance someone could provide some information about the modern city, rather than its name or history? --Henrygb 23:19, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I'll have a go at creating some kind of starting point. I've not lived in Kiev for 10 years now, but I've been back enough to see some changes occur. I'll post it here before we decide to move it into the Kiev page. -- mno 6 July 2005 01:09 (UTC)


 * I've started writing this section. Everyone's welcome to comment and contribute. Until it's more-so complete or at least in a decent shape, I have placed it here: User_talk:Mno/Kiev_Today. -- mno July 8, 2005 13:42 (UTC)


 * I've made some progress on Modern Kiev and would like to ask everyone to add their changes and comments. Kiev Today. -- mno 17:17, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Kharkivskyi neighborhood
Hi all. I've created a short article for the Kharvkivskyi neighborhood (under Kharkivskyy because that was the link on the Kiev page). I think it should be called Kharkivskyi, though, not Kharkivskyy. I didn't think about doing the change before I published the article, so maybe someone can please re-link the pages properly? Thanks! -- mno July 6, 2005 15:58 (UTC)

Attractions rearrangement
Presently, the article contains quite a few photos of Kyiv attractions. The photos are a bit scattered and this does not look good. Could anyone try to arrange the photos in nice looking tables, for instance, as it is done in Hawaii. Thanks in advance. Sashazlv 7 July 2005 05:29 (UTC)

Kiev Coat of Arms at the time of Imperial Russia
This image should be removed as someone's modern fantasy. As best I know, the current coat of arms is exactly the same as was used during Catherine the Great's reign. It is featured in Catherine's Gerbovnik as part of coats of arms of different noble families descended from Rurik, e.g., Baryatinsky, Volkonsky, Repnin, etc. --Ghirlandajo 7 July 2005 08:19 (UTC)


 * Feel free to modify if you are sure the CoA is wrong and see whether anyone will claim you're wrong. I won't. As for the history of this image, I got it from ( http://www.heraldry.com.ua/index.php3?lang=E&context=info&id=476#verh ). Maybe they didn't know what they were writing about. --Irpen July 7, 2005 17:12 (UTC)

Updated lilacs photo
I've updated the photo of the Kiev Botanical Gardens with a photo taken by R. Lezhoev. I have gotten in touch with him and asked his permission to upload the photo on Wikipedia. He agreed, assuming he is credited on the page where the photo is shown. The caption right now is a bit long, I'll leave it up to someone to change as they see fit. Getting rid of the note about Vydubychi would probably work. -- mno July 7, 2005 14:23 (UTC)

For those interested to compare the old and the new:


 * Old photo: Image:Kiev BotanicalGardens lilacs.jpg (taken approx. 1994)
 * New photo: Image:Kiev-BotanicalGarden-1280.jpg (taken 2003)

You can see how much the city changed (grew) from the amount of buildings in the background. Quit amazing. -- mno July 7, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

Livoberezhnyi district
I was just wondering after looking at the metro maps. The station Livoberezhna (meaning left shore or left bank) is located on the right bank of the river (geographically). A future possible metro extension (line 5), is also to be called Livoberezhna while it is located on the rigth bank geogrpahically. It seems the geographically right bank is called the left bank. Am I correct? I think we should add a small note about this somewhere on the Kiev page. -- mno July 7, 2005 16:56 (UTC)


 * It's the left bank as the river flows; i.e., on your left as you sit in a boat going downstream. —Michael Z. 2005-07-7 17:07 Z 


 * Ah, makes sense. Thanks! -- mno July 7, 2005 17:08 (UTC)

Map of Formal Districts
I've created three versions of the map of distrcits:


 * Image:Kiev DistrictMap Ukrainian.png - in Ukrainian
 * Image:Kiev DistrictMap English.png - in English
 * Image:Kiev DistrictMap Numbers.png - numbered

Feel free to use whichever one. I've added the Ukrainian version to the Districts section of the article.

-- mno 21:55, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Hi everybody. Regarding that map: unfortunately, it doesn't reflect the river - which is rather important for understanding the city's subdivision. Would somebody "split" it following the respective raion limits line? Ukrained 19:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Kiev Photos / Pictures
I've contributed a few of the photos to Kiev article in the past. Most of my selections were based on key attractions. I see even more additions of Kiev photos in the Modern Kiev section. I believe that these are ALL GREAT PHOTOS! And I'm sure there are even more. I would love to have a separate section of Kiev Photos which would feature the key attractions. Those could be updated as better photos of the same places turn up...

My proposal - create a separate page on Wikipedia : Kiev/Album or Kiev/Photos which would be entirely dedicated to all pics.

On the main article page include one or two photos per related section and a link to the newly created album page where more photos can be viewed.

What do you guys think? -asmadeus 18:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Aaaah... just figured out that there is also tons of Kiev Photos on Wikimedia Commons -asmadeus 18:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Article Quality and Reorganization
I thought about a list what must be done to make Kiev a perfect article. Feel free to add or modify. Sashazlv 04:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Make the lead section shorter. Especially, the paragraph with history. Possibly have 3 paragraphs there, but not more. (I already shortened the history in the lead couple of days ago. Do you think still shorter needed? -Irpen)
 * Yes, please, try to cut out all inessential detail (like Muskovy, later Russian empire, -- just Russian empire is enough). I think, for the lead, history paragraph is too long. Instead, if possible try to give a sentence or two about major tourist attractions. Plus Eurovision and Orange revolution - for PR reasons - most people are much more interested in recent events than history.
 * OK, I will try to rewrite the lead as per your suggestion. --Irpen 03:49, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * As a matter of fact, I am somewhat concerned that Kiev article, as a whole, is improperly structured. For instance, universities are under attractions. That's nonsense. Other important/useful info is missing: e.g., where most government building are, where to look for embassies, where to go shopping. There is no discussion of the economy of Kiev. Sashazlv 08:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * While I mostly agree here, we need to avoid ovedoing it. Embassies, for sure, belong to Wikitravel -Irpen 03:49, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, peers suggest reading articles on other cities as examples. See Peer review/Kiev/archive1. Sashazlv 08:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Will do. --Irpen 03:49, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * 1) Squeeze the into tab.
 * 2) Rearrange pictures into galleries. The way it is done in Hawaii article may be a good example.
 * 3) Redraw the picture with formal districts, [[Media:Kiev DistrictMap Ukrainian.png|Kiev DistrictMap Ukrainian.png]] into English names
 * 4) Put district names into table.
 * 5) Add section on transportation and consider other possible sections as in New York City article.
 * 6) Make a separate article on the history of Kyiv and summarize history in the main article.


 * On 1. I agree, I just expanded a lead a little bit, but what I think is that the 2nd para from the lead may actually become a basis for an entire history section and the current history can be indeed spun-off to a separate History of Kiev article. You are correct in everything else here too. This is so much better than Kiev/Kyiv/Kijow wars! Regards, --Irpen 04:14, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

History of Kiev is now a separate article, initially pasted from here. Please go there and help improving it, add pictures, etc. The plan is to have both at FA level. --Irpen 07:20, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

The current history section is based upon old "quick-history" in the lead. Please remember that History of Kiev is now a separate article and most of editing on history related matters should be there!

The even briefer history outline for the current lead is new. Please help with images arrangement at this page.

Since there is an ongoing drive to make both this and History of Kiev articles featured, please use extra care. Editing is welcome (this is wiki afterall), but please avoid careless "throwing in some thoughts" into the text. Also, a reminder, for Kiev/Kyiv/other disputes, archives reflect some thorough discussion. Before returning to this, read what was said before. Thanks to all! --Irpen 20:19, August 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * When I drew the maps of Kiev, I made 3 versions:
 * [[Media:Kiev DistrictMap Ukrainian.png]]
 * [[Media:Kiev DistrictMap English.png]]
 * [[Media:Kiev DistrictMap Numbers.png]]
 * I can also provide a version without any headings. -- mno 18:26, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I substituted the second of these for the existing one in the article. Is it possible to slightly color up the map? Say, Obolon in light blue, Pechersk in light green, etc. If that's overly time consuming - no problem, the current version should work fine. Thanks. Sashazlv 05:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I originally had drawn it in different colors, but that looked very ... colourful? ... to me so I changed it to plain. I don't have the coloured version anymore, but I can make it quite easily again. I will upload it in the next few days. -- mno 14:25, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I much prefer the way you guys have done the images now. I found it annoying having to scroll through them all before. -- mno 14:25, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

New Images
The new images look great, but we've lost their logical ordering. Sashazlv 05:00, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Categories
Why is it under Khazar towns | History of Russia categories? Ilya K 17:32, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

When did Kiev fall to the Mongols ? 1238 ? 1239 ? or 1240 December 6 ?
The Kiev page says 1238, Mongol invasion of Rus says "After many days of siege, the horde stormed Kiev in December 1239.", and Danylo of Halych and Voivode Dmytro show the date as 1240 December 6. I suspect the Mongols started the attack in 1238 and took 2 years to capture Kiev. Can someone familiar with topic confirm the dates and fix this, please ? -- PFHLai 19:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the specific official date is, but there are some indications that the horrible destruction of Kiev attributed to the Mongol "hordes" were actually committed several years earlier by the neighbouring principalities. Maybe that is the source of the confusion? The year of destruction of Kiev vs. the year when the Mongols sieged it?--NightOnEarth 20:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Any respectable sources that support these "some indications"? To me this sounds like a novel thought in historiography, but of course I am just a Wikipedian and not a historian by profession (though I did read history books). To see the mainstream account, you may start from Britannica, certainly not the best History book, but certainly as mainstream as one can possibly get. A quote from there:


 * In 1238 a Mongol army under Batu, grandson of Genghis Khan, invaded Rus and, having sacked the towns of central Rus, in 1240 besieged and stormed Kiev. Much of the city was destroyed and most of its population killed. The Franciscan friar and traveler Giovanni da Pian del Carpini six years later reported only 200 houses surviving in Kiev.

--Irpen 20:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I was looking for historic events for the Selected Anniversaries section on MainPage for December 6. If the date of the Fall of Kiev cannot be easily confirmed, I suppose I shouldn't post it on MainPage. Thanks. -- PFHLai 08:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Transportation section needs serious improvement
There are some false and/or ambiguous issues there:
 * The only major train station?
 * partial collapse of transit system?
 * buses including trams???

Somebody fix, or move the whole section here - temporarily. Ukrained 18:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It needs improvement by I don't think it is that bad as to be totally removed from the article to talk. We can improve gradually within the article itslelf. On the side note, the practical collapse of the transit system in the nineties did occur. Also, the suburban transportation including the ran-down buses and the famous Soviet Elektrichkas is totally missing. --Irpen 19:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well there is the Kiev Metro article (I am currentely negotiating with several people for right of images, hopefully I can begin filling out the station details soon). http://www.parovoz.com/ is a good site for information on rail transit. -- Kuban kazak 19:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I lack time, English and special rail terms, not factual info:) I just live here in this transportation system... I think we should closely work with WP-en trains and buses artilces&categories to harvest gizmo words and classification. Ukrained 19:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Structure of the article
IMHO, the existing structure of the sections is poorly readable and priority-missing. So I suggest the following plan of contents:

...
 * 1) Geography...
 * 2) History
 * 3) Legal status...
 * 4) Subdivisions
 * 5) Modern Kiev (shouldn't we split&develop it to Economy, Architecture, Social, Culture etc.?)
 * 6) Transportation
 * 7) Economy (non-existing so far)
 * 8) Universities
 * 9) Kiev or Kyiv

Please modify this structure below with your opinion. To my mind, we should analyze the experience of other megacities/capitals on WP.

I also suggest to establish the structure pattern for all big cities of Ukraine, based on the experience of Kiev. See the discussion here. Ukrained 13:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Ukrained 20:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Seens like copyrights-free photos of Kiev
Hi everybody. In case if anyone interested, I came across the UNIAN Kyivv photogallery that seems to be free for using. Would somebody take a look,investigate the possibilities and start using them? As for me, I don't know how to handle WP images yet. P.S. Merry Orthodox Christmas for everybody! Ukrained 20:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The image at the bottom of the site claims a copyright to UNIAN but the Ukrainian law allows certain exceptions as elaborated in template:PD-UA-exempt.


 * An excellent source of images from Ukraine is the cite http://sk.vlasenko.org whose author allows the usage of his images in WP under GFDL provided we aknowledge his authorship similar how it is done at Image:Pochaev.jpg. --Irpen 20:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Even though the law may allow certain exceptions, I'm not quite sure that those exceptions apply to the UNIAN images. I would suggest emailing them and clarifying what and how (and if) we can use. I can do that, I have done that a few times. mno 13:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Destruction in WWII
I have replaced

In World War II, the city was destroyed again, almost completely

with

In World War II, the city again suffered significant damage

This occurs in two places in the article.

While it is true that there was widespread destruction and some parts of the city were almost totally destroyed, overall, the destruction was not nearly as extensive as, say, in Warsaw. As anyone living in Kiev would confirm, there are many pre-war buildings in the city that still exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.4.207 (talk • contribs) 19:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)