Talk:Lake Geneva

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Nomenclature
In French, the lake is sometimes, perhaps most frequently, called Lac Léman. (And in German, Genfersee). S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.168.172.213 (talk) January 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * Yes, That is true even for the population of Geneva. It is very rare to hear lac de Genève in Geneva. /Popup 12:47, 2004 Feb 5 (UTC)


 * Completely agree! Moved from Lake Geneva to Leman Lake (according to the original Roman name of the lake). -- Quattrop ~16:00, 03 Aug 2005 (SGT)
 * Not sure where that comes from. I live in geneva and rarely ever hear "léman". Calling the Lake "Léman" is generally a way to show you are French or Vaudois here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:2C6D:6AC0:3864:8492:B2E8:F2DC (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Why "Leman Lake"? "Lake Leman" would be more natural.
 * In French "Le Lac Léman" means the whole lake. All of it, all the way to Montreux. "Le Lac de Genève" technically refers only to the end bit that twists round towards Geneva. I have lived here for nearly 40 years, and mostly hear "Le Léman". I rarely hear "Lac de Genève".
 * --Carusus (talk) 10:29, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I am from Geneva and nobody calls the big lake, "lac de Genève", even in Geneva, despite what some people dispute to the inhabitants of Geneva. However it is true the tiny, narrower bit on the western side of the lake, is sometimes called "lac de Genève". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclistefou (talk • contribs) 12:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Recent move from "Lake Geneva" to "Leman Lake"
This move should be undone. The lake is indeed usually called "lac Léman" in French, but the overwhelming majority of English usage is "Lake Geneva". Google supports that assertion: "Leman Lake" 5550 vs. "Lake Geneva" 648,000 or 884 vs. 187,000 if you add "Switzerland" to the query. Rl 10:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Done. -- User:docu 12:26, August 6, 2005 (UTC)


 * Except Lake Geneva also refers to a lake in wiskonsin, "lake geneva" has more hits because of that. In fact, the first results to come up on google.com, both text and image, are about lake geneva, WI, which is both a town and a lake. 85.1.123.216 (talk) 22:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC) Dekox

Geneva citizen
Lac Léman is used only by French people (to remember us that a small corner belong to France) and frustrated minor towns around Lake Geneva, they can't stand this name "Lac de Genève". I'm a Geneva citizen, you can belive me, we call it Lac de Genève or simply "le Lac". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.76.132.114 (talk) 00:12, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, this is nicely POV. It would be more correct to say that Lac Léman is the official name in French (and therfore used by every French speaker, excpet ---as the above comment seems to demonstrate--- by a some inhabitants from Geneva who think they are the center of the world). However, it is true, that in english the name Lake Geneva is much more common. As this is the English Wikipedia, the article should be named Lake Geneva — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glaurung (talk • contribs) 11:44, October 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * This is factually plain wrong. Lac Léman is the official name, not just in France (rather half of the lake, not a small corner, belongs to France), but also the entire Swiss area surrounding the lake which is francophone (this means french-speaking). Calling the cities of Lausanne, Montreux, Evian, Thonon, etc, "frustrated" is childish. As a citizen of Geneva, I call the lake "Lac Léman", and it is the official name on all the maps and signs in Geneva. Informally, we call it "Lac DE Genève", which means Lake OF Geneva, but certainly never Lac Genève. Calling it Lake Geneva is therefore wrong and lazy. Just because more people on Google are wrong and lazy does not make it true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntonioGramsci2011 (talk • contribs) 05:36, April 17, 2020 (UTC)

Resident of Montreux syas: Actually Lac Leman is not used by frustrated 'French' on the south shore. The rest of the lake is surrounded by French speaking Swiss who prefer use 'Lac Leman'. The Swiss of the region do not like the term Lake Geneva since it suggests the lake is an extension of Geneva, when actually Geneva is at the very end of the lake as it runs into the Rhone river. Swiss in Lausanne, Vevey, Montreux and all towns feel offended when thelake is assigned as the property of Geneva. Lac Leman is the correct name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.118.6.229 (talk) 10:02, November 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * I am a Geneva citizen too. I usually call the lake Leman "Lake geneva". However, I and every one knows it is in fact called lake Leman. Only people from Geneva call it the lake Geneva. As a Scuba diver I see many people from around the lake (of whom people from Geneva is just a minority), and it is true they feel ofended when people from Geneva call it Lake Geneva. I suppose english people erroneously believe it is called lake Geneva because of the international status of Geneva: thus english speaking people mostly meet people from Geneva which are the only people using the unofficial name "lake Geneva". Do what you want with this, but it is a fact that 1) The official name is Lake Leman 2) Only in Geneva is it called lake Geneva (and every one knows it is not the official name) 3) I would say in Geneva people call it lake Geneva and lake Leman 50% of the time... In views of these facts, the page needs to mention this naming ambiguity. --Powo 00:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I live in a small minor town around the lake, I use 50% each "lac de Geneve" and "lac leman". So what's the problem? :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.62.36.98 (talk) 01:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What? Nobody that I know in Geneva calls the lake "lac de Genève", except maybe when speaking English or German. This is a common accusation that we Geneva citizen call the lake "lac de Genève" when speaking French but that's simply untrue. Except maybe during a derby with Lausanne in soccer or hockey game to annoy the rivals, and even then I don't think that's true (but I don't go to games). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclistefou (talk • contribs) 12:15, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

French TV
On french TV the name of lake Geneva is as well used. But "lac léman" is more right. I live in Geneva as well and my friend and me say lac léman... --195.65.51.14 18:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Swiss map
I think you will find that the official (Swiss) name in French is "Le Léman". That name is used as the title for sheet #40 of the Swiss National Map (1:100.000 series: http://www.swisstopo.ch/en/products/analog/maps/tk100), and many other references can be found here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9man_%28homonymie%29. I agree with others below that the lake is popularly referred to by the Swiss as "Lac Léman". I've lived in Geneva for 30 years and never heard "Lac de Genève", although there are so many new arrivals, foreigners and tourists that anything goes... You will also hear local English speakers say "the Léman" 62.203.65.11 17:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Official documents in Geneva
Though "Lac Léman is more common in French and also used in Geneva parralel to "Lac de Genève", le Former (lac de Genève) is used in Genevan official documents and law. Saying the "Lac de Genève" is not in use in French is therefore demonstratibly incorrect (http://www.ge.ch/legislation/rsg/main.html). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:2C6D:6AC0:B045:2C8B:1F17:9E62 (talk) 19:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Original name
As a true local, born and educated in Geneva, i can affirm that "Lake Geneva" or "Lac de Genève" is considered and *error*; this name is mostly used if you want to piss off people from Lausanne (call it "le petit village de pêcheurs au bord du lac de Genève") ;P otherwise, the correct name is Leman Lake (or Lake Léman, whichever..) and it is the name that has been used looooong before the erroneous "Lake Geneva" was introduced (if I recall correctly, originally to describe the lower, thin portion of the lake near Geneva). Even though a vast amount of people uses the incorrect name "Lake Geneva", the correct and official name is "Leman Lake" and the article should be moved to "Leman Lake". Konrad-EN (talk) 08:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

English-language name
As pointed out earlier, the issue is not what French-speaking people call it, but what English-speaking people call it. I agree that in French is is "Lac Leman", whether you are French, Swiss, or any other nationality. But in English, it is "Lake Geneva", as far as I know (and I live there). And in German it is "Genfersee".--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:30, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have been restarted by a recent edit. If anybody can document that the English-language name of the lake is something other than "Lake Geneva", then please provide the citation to that effect. Otherwise the name should remain as "Lake Geneva".--Gautier lebon (talk) 11:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've removed Lake Léman as an alternate English name from the lede based on the Ngram data here. Doremo (talk) 17:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Google Maps
The most common English-Language map search engine, Google Maps, accurately names it Leman, it should be Leman. Calling it Lake Geneva is incorrect and ignorant. There is a lake Geneva in Wisconsin, USA. Someone mentioned the German language, which is irrelevant, as it is neither the language of this article, nor a local language. German is not the language spoken in this Canton of Switzerland. Italian is also an official language of another area of Switzerland, and it's called Lago Lemano in Italian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntonioGramsci2011 (talk • contribs) 07:25, April 20, 2020 (UTC)

Mary Shelley, the famous English writer, referred to it as lake Leman. So did Lord Byron, so did Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntonioGramsci2011 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

fish?
Are thre fish in it again? are they safe to eat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.20 (talk) 01:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Yes there are, and yes they are. 83.228.206.76 (talk) 21:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 04:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Surface Area Comparison to Lake Balaton
It seems that there are contradicting assertions for both Lake Leman and Lake Balaton in Hungary. Both claim to be the largest lake in Central Europe, but the surface area clearly indicates Balaton is the largest (making Leman the second largest). A quick survey of several sites seem to confirm this, although the surface areas for Balaton seem to differ slightly. Any reason why the comment on the largest lake in C.E. should remain for lake Leman? --mexicatl 16:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ignore above comment, I was looking at an older version of the page. --mexicatl 16:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in surface, but it is the largest in volume 83.228.206.76 (talk) 22:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

In volume the largest of continental Europe, in area the largest of western Europe. MadGeographer (talk) 11:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Largest in Western Europe?
The assertion that the lake is the largest in Western Europe requires that one consider (as the UN Statistics Division) Scandinavia + Finland (which both have larger lakes) to be outside Western Europe. This is OK, although UNESCO has another definition (see article about Western Europe).

It is however more problematic to exclude the Netherlands from Western Europe. Although we are talking about lakes that have been created, Markermeer and Lake Yssel are both larger. See: List of largest lakes of Europe. Changes should hence be made in at least one of the three mentioned articles.

ErikHWiki (talk) 13:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I would also question the statement about the lake being the "largest body of freshwater in continental Europe in term of volume", as Lake Ladoga is far bigger (water volume 837 km3). The referred source may have been based on "Germanic studies" as referred to in the Continental Europe page and could therefore have excluded Karelia from "Kontinentaleuropa". This isn't consistent with the modern use of the term and thus the statement is quite misleading. JukkaZitting (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, this should be corrected, please see Talk:Lake Geneva.--Gautier lebon (talk) 11:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was withdrawn. JPG-GR (talk) 02:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This idea has been kicking around for a long time, but to my knowledge has never been subjected to formal review (if I am wrong, please let me know). Please give your opinions below. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Move. The accepted name in both France and Switzerland is Léman. One source is at http://www.unil.ch/bcu/page40975.html. There are others. It should be Lake Léman, and not Léman Lake, in the style of Lake Louise or Lake Champlain. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Withdraw. Based on the references below from the Encylopedia Britannica and Encarta, I agree that the title should remain Lake Geneva. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose I personally call it Lac Léman, but I have to acknowledge that its common name appears to be Lake Geneva in English language (Search results are overwhelming infavour of "Lake Geneva" over "Lake Léman", even if you add in "Léman Lake" results.) Narson (talk) 17:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. English sources use Geneva: Lake Geneva at Britannica, Lake Geneva at Encarta, and our own naming convention in this is Use English. "Accepted name in France and Switzerland" is irrelevant. French Wikipedians have not anglicised all the "Lacs" in Catégorie:Grands Lacs (Amérique du Nord), and nor should they. 14days (talk) 19:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That first reference goes to a different Lake Geneva. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 19:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Found the correct article on Britannica. They still use Lake Geneva though. Narson (talk) 19:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose per the arguments at WP:Official names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's overwhelmingly called Lake Geneva in English-language publications. Some people might think that it should be called Lake Léman - but it's not up to Wikipedia to change scholarship. Noel S McFerran (talk) 01:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Lake Geneva is considered offensive outside Geneva": reverted per BRD
I removed the anon-added "It is useful to know for visitors that in places around the lake other than Geneva, the use of the name Lac de Genève might be considered offensive, while Lac Léman is a mark of respect" as an over-the-top unsourced POV addition. As we would say in those places around the lake other than Geneva, "faut quand même pas déconner non plus".

You'll have to bring serious references, preferably also in French, to support the notion that a foreigner referring to it as "Lake Geneva" in Lausanne is being offensive. MLauba (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

No objections on my side to the deletion. I live here, and have never heard anybody express offense or respect. Also, the many germanophones around here call it Genfersee, no matter where they live. I guess that I was being too lenient when I edited the remark and added the requestion for citation: deleting does seem more appropriate.--Gautier lebon (talk) 13:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have been restarted by a recent edit. If anybody can document that the English-language name of the lake is something other than "Lake Geneva", then please provide the citation to that effect. Otherwise the name should remain as "Lake Geneva".--Gautier lebon (talk) 11:35, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Strange claims removed
I removed the claims about the lake being the largest in Western Europe and the largest freshwater lake in Continental Europe, as neither is correct. Look at lakes like Lake Vänern or Lake Saimaa, not to mention Lake Ladoga. There are a lot of other lakes, all larger that Lake Geneva, in Russia, Sweden and Finland, all of which are part of Continental Europe.Jeppiz (talk) 12:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I see your point. Lake Lagoda is not in Western Europe, and apparently the citation  used a definition of "Western Europe" which excluded Finland and Sweden (and also excluded Estonia).  There is a good list at List_of_largest_lakes_of_Europe.  On that basis, I support your deletion.  But I've added a link to that list, so that people can see for themselves how big it is in relative terms.--Gautier lebon (talk) 11:32, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Perfect, thanks! :-) Jeppiz (talk) 12:51, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Origin of name
The current english version of the page says "Lemannus comes from Ancient greek Limanos, Limènos Limne Λιμένος Λίμνη meaning port's lake;" The german version says the name comes from the celtic "lem" and "an" which means "big" and "water". The french version says it likely comes from that (but origin is unknown). So which of all these is true? Signof (talk) 12:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Name of article
I've just moved the article back from Lake Leman to Lake Geneva, reverting the most recent of attempted moves by user AntonioGramsci2011. (It has been at Lake Geneva for the last decade or so.)

The title of Lake Geneva lines up with the official Wikipedia policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Usage of Lake Leman in English is extremely rare. As user Doremo mentioned below, this is obvious from a quick look at Google results or a search of books from Ngram data here.

Furthermore, the lake is referred to as Lake Geneva by not only the overwhelming majority of sources in English, but also the English-language versions of Swiss government and tourist websites, including geneve.com, papers by the Geneva local government in English and Swiss railway maps published in English.

What locals call the lake does not matter for the title of the English-language page. Residents of the capital of Algeria refer to their city as الجزائر‎ or approximately Al-Jazāʾir, yet the page is titled Algiers. It is Wikipedia policy (again, WP:COMMONNAME) to use the common English name.

I hope this can conclusively resolve the matter. OwenVersteeg (talk) 04:03, 25 April 2020 (UTC)


 * (I have moved this entry to the bottom of the page to retain the usual oldest-first date order; and linked for reference. Please revert if you wish.) To support this further: Londres is the French Wikipedia article for the capital of the United Kingdom, titled using the French common name for the city, rather than the name by which it is known in its native English. In the same way as the English Lake Geneva article lists the names used in French (and German), the French article for London lists the city's name in English. Bazza (talk) 09:16, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

The great brainwashing...
I thought this place was a space for knowledge. You are wiping the history and the knowledge itself by naming this fabulous lake with a wrong name just because "most foreign people call it this way". There's no doubt of it as people now take wikipedia as the reference and it has been showing a wrong name for too long. It is indeed easier to remember the lake with a such name when you're a foreigner as the current biggest city around is Geneva, but that doesn't mean it is correct and it should be called like that. It has already been proven by many people here that the true and official name is «Lac Léman», «Leman Lake» in English, and the fact that so many people know the name wrong is a major argument to call this article back by the official and historical name of the lake: «Leman Lake», as they would learn something. It is even more important as today everything leads to wikipedia/wikidata, even web mapping are linked to it and use its content. So naming things by wrong names just because most people knows it a certain way is for sure disrespectful but it is also a big issue as it will be shown and used with the wrong name on other things like maps. Plus, as you seem to take Google as a reference, I first suggest you to search on it «Geneva Lake», you'll se that it shows the lake in Wisconsin, not Leman Lake. Then you should go on Google Maps and have a look on how the lake is named on the map. 92.132.227.136 (talk) 06:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC)