Talk:Lake freighter

Name, part 2
I don't have a problem with the name of this page. Furthermore, I found the article to be informative. However this page contains info that is not relevant to its title. Starting under the "Museum ships and boats" section:

The section titled "Manistee" describes a museum ship kept in Manistee, called City of Milwaukee, that is not a freighter but a railroad car ferry. I understand that under an extremely liberal definition one could argue that rail cars can be considered freight here (or at least rail cars carry freight and are carried by the car ferry making a car ferry a freighter by transitivity). However I do not believe that this fits with the overall tone of the article nor with what is normally considered a freighter--let alone lake freighter --in general.

The section titled "Manitoulin Island" contains info regarding an automobile ferry called SS Norisle. Again, while this ship was designed to carry objects--specifically cars and people--I do not believe these objects would be considered freight and nor would this vessel be considered a lake freighter.

The sections titled "Muskegon" and "Saugatuck" describe passenger vessels named SS Keewatin and Milwaukee Clipper respectively. These vessels did not even carry freight.

The section titled "Sault Ste. Marie, ON" contains info on some sort of hybrid vessel called MS Norgoma that was designed for both freight and passengers. I do not believe this fits in the article either.

There are also several entries in the "Failed Museum Attempts" and "Possible future museum potential" sections such as the Lansdowne, a paddlewheel steam railroad ferry, the Normac, a fire tug converted into passenger/packet steamer, and the SS Norisle again that do not really fit into the scope of this article. In addition the title "Possible future museum potential" seems needlessly wordy. Perhaps a title like "Potential museum ships" would be better.

I think the above information is good information and deserves inclusion somewhere in wikipedia, just not here. It should either be moved to a new page or pages or to existing relevant pages. If no one objects please do so, or I will do so in the next month or two.76.188.183.123 (talk) 16:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Name
The expression "lakers" is ambiguous. People mostly concerned with the Great Lakes, when they wish to distinguish dry-bulk carrying vessels that only trade there ("Lakes-only bulkers") from oceangoing vessels that trade both there and elsewhere in the world, often use the expression "lakers" to mean "Lakes-only bulkers" and "salties" to mean the others.

On the other hand, people concerned with international shipping in general and not specially focussed on the Great Lakes mostly ignore the "Lakes-only bulkers" and use the expression "lakers" to mean "Lakes-fitted bulkers." These are a subset of smallish handysize bulkers with suitable cargo-handling gear and beam of no more than 23 point something meters. (Sorry, I don't know exactly.) "Lakers" in this sense go everywhere and one might be chartered for a voyage from Thunder Bay to Rotterdam or Jedda or Singapore. Thus international people use "laker" to mean what the Lakes folk mean by "salty." (N.B.: Some other types of smaller ships that carry bulk cargoes trade on the Lakes as well and are not called "lakers" by anybody.)

The Wikipedia article "Lake freighter" follows the usage described in the first paragraph above and would be confusing to somebody who had been talking to an international shipbroker, e.g., who had referred to a certain vessel as a "laker". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mstarli (talk • contribs) 07:21, 26 June 2006


 * While the term "laker" is ambiguous (being understood differently by different groups), there really is no other universally accepted term to refer to "Great Lakes bulk carriers" without using all four words. Common usage calls them "ore boats" regardless of what is actually in the hold, but that is known only on the Great Lakes. One might call them "lake boats", but few outside the lakes know that Great Lakes sailors commonly refer to their "ships" as "boats". (Apparently this is the result of an historic differentiation between sailing "ships" and steam "boats".) I believe that using the term "laker" works fine, given that the first paragraph sets the definition for the purposes of this article (and given that in an article about Great Lakes boats it makes sense to use terms as Great Lakes people use them). —Preceding unsigned comment added by RDavS (talk • contribs) 00:32, 13 April 2007

Photos
Moving the Edmund Fitzgerald down the page in favour of starting the page with the John B. Aird is a little problematic given that the Aird has a wheelhouse-aft configuration. While a number of larger vessels have been built in recent years with the wheelhouse aft, the classic laker design puts the wheelhouse forward. If another free (not fair use) image of a wheelhouse-forward laker can be found and uploaded, it might be a good candidate for the top of the article... but arguably, that shot of the Edmund Fitzgerald is the iconic image of the laker. Susan Davis 06:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Museums
For whoever keeps adding the Niagara to the museum section: The Niagara that currently resides in Erie is a reproduction of a frigate that was used in the War of 1812, not a lake frieghter.
 * You are confusing the Brig Niagara with the SS Niagara which is owned by the Steamship Niagara Museum, Inc.. I can't tell whether the ship is actually open as a museum though. Rmhermen 04:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The SS Niagara was retired as a sand dredge in 1985. Efforts to turn her into a museum failed and she was scrapped in 1997. See http://digin.bgsu.edu/vsl_sch.htm for more info. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cason (talk • contribs) 20:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC).
 * While the future tense of the page does allow that it may still exist, I agree there is no reason to list it as a museum here. Rmhermen 21:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

-There is absolutly no chance of the Arthur Atkinson becoming a museum ship. She is totally stripped and in poor condition. With the number of museum ships already in danger, any money availible will go to those ships. There also dozens of more historic choices as museums. (added by Cason, 23:47, May 29, 2007 )

schedule
A question: Do lake freighters return empty after unloading or take other goods and/or materials back to the source of loading?

Answer: Yes. Both scenarios occur. The more independent the shipping company is from a particular industry, the more it gets cargoes where it can find them. For example, a boat may bring a cargo of iron ore from Two Harbors to Cleveland and return with a cargo of coal. Or it may proceed empty ("light") from Cleveland to Erie and load coal there. If a boat's ownership is closely tied to the steel industry, it may take a cargo of coal back to Minnesota if one is available, but may return empty so the cargo more important for its owners keeps moving with the least amount of delay. Some boats haul one cargo exclusively, others alternate between two or three, and others see a wide variety of cargoes and ports. RDavS 23:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Often empty - there aren't many huge bulk loads that need to head up north compared to the number that come down from the mines to the mills and plants. Rmhermen 00:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Why?
Why shouldn't this article list all the lake freighters still afloat? There are only 120 or so. Geo Swan (talk) 04:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think creating a separate list-article List of lake freighters or List of current lake freighters would be warranted. This article is nice as it is, though it could certainly refer to a list of all examples.  There are many pairs of articles in wikipedia of that nature (one article about a type of something, one list-article of many or all examples of that type). doncram (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I would lean towards creating one list for all lake freighters first, not just current lakers. One source for that list-article would be "Historical Collections of the Great Lakes / Great Lakes Vessels Online Index / University Libraries / Bowling Green State University" at http://ul.bgsu.edu/cgi-bin/xvsl2.cgi which is a source in a DYK article from today (Michigan Limestone and Chemical Company) that mentions the first unloading laker, Wyandotte. doncram (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

effects of the freeze up?
There's nothing in the article about the shipping season, particularly the effects of ice. -- stewacide (talk)

Seaway Queen
I rather doubt a accounting error sent her to the scrapyard. Upper Lakes Shipping has stated that they tried to find a community or organization that would preserve her, but was unsuccessful. The accounting error sounds like nonsense that has never been mentioned at sites like Boatnerd.com or ULS employees. I'm going to edit it out until you can cite a source for this claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.220.47 (talk) 02:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Trim museum ships
Material removed from page (not lakers). All of these (and more) seem to have already been moved to List of Great Lakes museum and historic ships. Preserved here in case any were missed. Rmhermen (talk) 20:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Kewaunee, Wisconsin
Former Army Corps of Engineer tugboat Ludington. Built as an Army tug in 1943, it partook in the D-Day Invasion at Normandy.

Kingston, Ontario
Former Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker CCGS Alexander Henry resides at the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes as a display. Launched in 1958, it and the former USCGC Mackinaw serve as the Great Lakes two surviving large red hulled icebreakers.

Mackinaw City, Michigan
The SS Mackinaw is a 290-foot (88 m) vessel specifically designed for ice breaking duties on the Great Lakes. LR number: 6119534

The Mackinaw was homeported in Cheboygan, Michigan, during active service. Due to the Mackinaw's age and expensive upkeep, the cutter was decommissioned and replaced with a smaller multipurpose cutter USCGC Mackinaw (WLBB-30), which was commissioned in Cheboygan the same day.

The old Mackinaw moved under its own power on June 21, 2006, from the port of its decommissioning to a permanent berth at the SS Chief Wawatam dock at the ship's namesake port, Mackinaw City, Michigan where she now serves as the Icebreaker Mackinaw Maritime Museum.

Manistee, Michigan
The SS City of Milwaukee was a railroad ferry of the Grand Trunk Milwaukee Car Ferry Company. Built in 1931 to replace a previous ferry, the SS Milwaukee, lost in 1929 with all hands. She sailed for this company for 40 years and another 5 for the Ann Arbor Railroad before laying up in Frankfort in 1982. She sat there until being sold for a museum. Later moved to her present berth in Manistee, she is open for tours as the last unmodified classic railroad ferry. The older paddlewheel steam railroad ferries SS Lansdowne, built in 1884, was modified to support a restaurant in antique railcars in Erie, Pennsylvania; and the Huron, built in 1875, was stripped of her cabins and sank at a pier in Detroit. The hull of the Landowne was raised and towed to Buffalo. The mayor and daily newspaper have inveighed against the Lansdowne, calling it an eyesore. She has since been scrapped. The former USCGC Acacia is also a museum ship here.

Manitoulin Island, Ontario
The SS Norisle is a museum ship berthed permanently at the Manitowaning Heritage Complex. It is one of three surviving running mates, the others being the Norgoma and the Normac. It was built in 1946, the first ship built in post-WW II Canada, using engines intended for a Royal Canadian destroyer. Norisle ran until 1974 when it was replaced by the MS Chi-Cheemaun. Plans call for sinking the Norisle as a tourist dive site. A group, Friends of The Norisle, some 200 strong, has formed to lobby against this loss of history.

Muskegon, Michigan
The Milwaukee Clipper, another passenger steamer. Built in 1904, she served as a passenger/package freighter for the Pennsylvania Railroad marine division called the Anchor Line as the Stmr. Juniata. In 1940, after several years in layup, she was sold and converted to an excursion steamer between Muskegon & Milwaukee. Laid up in the 1970s, she lingered for 30 years before returning to Muskegon as a museum. Also in Muskegon is the USCGC McLane, a 1920s vintage Coast Guard cutter used to combat the rum-runners in Detroit during Prohibition. Located alongside the McLane is the USS Silversides (SS-236), a Gato-class World War II submarine and museum. The sub is known as the most decorated World War II sub still in existence. Additionally, the USS LST 393, a World War II tank landing ship launched in 1943, is available for tours at West Michigan Dock & Market in downtown Muskegon. Sporting the camouflage livery she wore at the end of the war, the ship worked as an automobile ferry between 1947 and 1973, under the name MV Highway 16 (after US Route 16 which was bridged by the ship between Muskegon and Milwaukee, Wisconsin).

Saugatuck, Michigan
The SS Keewatin, a former Canadian Pacific passenger liner. Built in Scotland in 1907, the boat steamed between Fort William, Ontario, and Port McNicoll for over 50 years until being sold for scrap in 1967. Saved from the wrecker's torch, the Keewatin was towed to Saugatuck, Michigan use as a museum in 1968. She is the last unmodified Great Lakes passenger liner in existence and a wonderful example of Edwardian luxury. Keewatin is one of the world's last coal-fired steamships. A Toronto Star article (June 24, 2007) documents a Canadian effort to see the venerable steamer returned to Dominion waters as a museum ship at Port McNicoll.

Penetanguishene, Ontario
Georgian Queen, ex-Canadian Coast Guard icebreaking cutter converted into a tour boat.

Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
The MS Norgoma, berthed in the Canadian Soo, was built as a steamer carrying freight and passengers in 1950. She ran from Owen Sound to Sault Ste. Marie from 1950 to 1963 on the so-called Turkey Trail. In 1963, the Norgoma was converted to a car ferry, her former role taken over by trucks, buses and automobiles. She ran between Tobermory to Manitoulin Island. At this time, the Norgoma was converted to diesel power. She became a museum ship in 1977.

Thunder Bay, Ontario
The 1905 icebreaking tugboat James Whalen serves as a popular photo shoot at Kaministiquia Park. It was rescued in 1977 after it was slated for scrapping.

Two Harbors, Minnesota
The steam tugboat Edna G is in retirement as a floating display. Built in 1896, it was one of the last operating steam tugboats on the Great Lakes. It is on the National Register of Historic Places.

Toronto, Ontario
The side-wheel steam ferry Trillium (1910) was reactivated in 1976 calls Toronto home. Several vintage 1930s screw ferries serve along side her. The steamtug Ned Hanlan has been preserved ashore as a static display on the grounds of the Canadian National Exhibition. Launched in 1932, the tug is one of three preserved steamtugs on the Great Lakes, the other being the James Whalen and the Edna G.


 * Three masted schooner Alvin Clark - Built in 1846 for the lumber trade, she sank in Green Bay in 1864. She was raised in 1965 and taken to Menominee as a museum. After being severely neglected for a number of years, she was dismantled in 1998.


 * Lansdowne – The paddlewheel steam railroad ferry Lansdowne, built in 1884, was modified to support a restaurant in antique railcars and the Huron, built in 1875, sank at a pier in Erie, Pennsylvania. The hull was raised but little other information as to the future of the vessel has been forthcoming. The hulk was towed to Buffalo, New York, in July 2006. The mayor of Buffalo in the winter of 2008 called it an eyesore and called for its removal. The Lansdowne was scrapped in July 2008.


 * Chief Wawatam - One of the world's most historic icebreakers and the last hand-fired coal steamer on the Great Lakes. The Wawatam was cut down to a barge, and finally scrapped by its owner Purvis Marine of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario.


 * Alabama - Famous Goodrich Transit Line steamer later cut down as a barge, scrapped in 2009.


 * wrecking tug Favorite - The Great Lakes most famous salvage tug, likened to the role played by the SS Foundation Franklin in the Canadian Maritimes. An attempt to save it at Sault Ste. Marie next to the SS Valley Camp failed when state monies failed to materialize and the riveted hull began to leak.  Broken up at Detour, Michigan.


 * Three-masted schooner J. T. Wing - Last commercial sailing ship on the Great Lakes, used briefly in the lumber trade on the Great Lakes. She served as a training vessel before being grounded on Belle Isle in 1949 as a static museum ship, before being burned before a crowd of 6000 in 1956.


 * MS Normac - 1902 built fire tug converted into passenger/packet steamer for the Owen Sound Transportation Company Ltd. Larger running mates Norisle and Norgoma have been converted into museum ships. After a stint as a floating restaurant in Toronto that was terminated when accidentally rammed by a ferry, the Normac was towed to Port Dalhousie, Ontario, where she serves as the floating cocktail lounge. She was gutted by arson fire in 2011.


 * The coast guard cutter Bramble, a former museum ship, has been put up for sale by its owner, the Port Huron Museum. The city of Saint Clair, Michigan, rejected an option to host the Bramble as a museum ship in the summer of 2011.


 * SS Norisle at Manitoulin Island. Plans call for the ship to be towed and scuttled as a dive site. The "Friends of the Norisle" have formed to oppose this loss. Supportive articles and letters to the editor have appeared in the Manitoulin Expositor newspaper.

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Second Paragraph Unclear/Poor Grammar
The second paragraph on this page is in poor shape. There are several problems with its first sentence (highlighted in bold): "Lakers carry bulk cargoes of materials such as limestone, iron ore, grain, coal, or salt from the mines and fields to the populous industrial areas down the lakes."

The two bolded clauses have the same issue - which mines and fields, and which industrial areas are we talking about? The use of the word "the" here is wrong without having previously identified which areas are being discussed. I don't know have the requisite knowledge to fix this myself, but an example of how this could be improved is (changes in bold): "Lakers carry bulk cargoes such as limestone, iron ore, grain, coal, or salt from the mines and fields surrounding Lake Superior to the various populous industrial areas of the lower great lakes (e.g. City1, City, City3, etc...)."

The final edit doesn't have to look anything like this, of course, but this hopefully serves to illustrate the issue and a possible solution. If we don't want to indicate which specific fields, mines, and industrial areas are being referred to in this sentence, then the edit could be just to remove one or two occurrences of "the" as follows (this example removes only one "the" but also makes some other changes): "Lakers carry bulk cargoes such as limestone, iron ore, grain, coal, or salt from mines and fields surrounding the upper lakes to the populous industrial areas of the lower lakes."

Note in both examples I gave that "of materials" has been removed; it's needlessly wordy and pluralizing "cargoes" and "materials" is wrong. Also, changing the "or" between "coal" and "salt" to an "and" may be appropriate.

There are similar problems throughout. E.g., the second sentence's staring "The 63 commercial ports...". I assume this is referring to the "populous industrial areas" of the first sentence. But using "the" here without already knowing which "63 populous areas" are being discussed is wrong.

Thanks in advance to anyone with the knowledge to make this edit properly. I'd have made an "edit request", but apparently there is supposed to be a talk page topic before edit requests are made (I'm new to this, but that's what the help topic on edit requests said).Loss Mentality (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Why not start editing it?  Start with a little bit at a time. North8000 (talk) 17:44, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

No need for references, vessel articles properly sourced
Lake freighter. There is NO need for references, or sources, because most vessels have their own article which is properly sourced. Peter Horn User talk 01:44, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not officially correct, not that I'm concerned about it. The fact that it is verified in a linked article is plenty good for me. North8000 (talk) 20:45, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

List of lake freighters
The large copy and pasted list of "all"(?) lake freighters seems like it is partially duplicating the "List of 1000-footers on the lakes" that is already in this article and some of the tonnage info conflicts between the lists. The list appears to have been wholesale copied from Lake Carriers Association which displays a copyright at the bottom of the page. This list of lake freighters includes SS Badger, which is a passenger and vehicle ferry and not a bulk carrier. Do you consider the 60 foot Ojibway as a bulk carrier / lake freighter? Some of these are ships owned by companies that are in the Lake Carriers Association, but they are not lake freighters. Having a list titled "All" also invites additions of smaller and smaller craft that no one would normally consider a lake freighter. In addition to the questionable items I just listed, we also don't know if any are omitted because they are not in this association. I think the list of 1000+ footers is enough for this article to limit the list to a reasonably maintainable size. Certainly, the non-bulk carriers need to be removed and I suggest sending the rest to List of lake freighters or some similar titled list article. -- Dual Freq (talk) 21:13, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thorough description of your rationale.   I'm convinced. IMO you should proceed to delete or modify.  Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:33, 22 September 2023 (UTC)