Talk:Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite

Complete Rewrite
The entry should be rewritten with a comprehensive bibliography and overview of LYB's life in writing (including his signficant online contributions), audio recordings and a more robust account of the critical reactions. At this point the coroner's file is still open and a report will probably not be issued until early 2009. -Aaavidaver —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Copyright isses
Wikipedia:Copyright_problems/2006_September_14/Articles
 * Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite ([ history] · [ last edit]) from . 24.68.155.61 04:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite ([ history] · [ last edit]) from . ~


 * lawrece ytzhak braithwaite the bio submitted from icomposition to Wikipedia of the artist lawrence ytzhak braithwaite is composed by myself lawrence ytzhak braithwaite and is mine to use and i grant permission for it to be used by the poster as an external link on wikipedia for the bio of this artist.

lawrence ytzhak braithwate (aka lord patch) I am the sole author of the profile from icomposition and have allowed it to be reused it as an external link of my official profile, I hold 100% of the copyright. I hereby give Wikipedia permission to use any and all text from this profile in Wikipedia.

lawrence ytzhak braithwate (aka lord patch) Copyright (c) YEAR 2006  lawrence ytzhak braithwaite. Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled "GNU Free Documentation License".

info@wikimedia.org

Wikipedia:Copyright_problems/2006_September_14/Articles
 * Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite ([ history] · [ last edit]) from . ~

Cleanup
I cleaned up the article but it still needs plenty of work. It was full of grammar and spelling errors, as well as unclear writing. One major problem was capitalization. I'm not sure if I got all the names of the titles right in the bibliography and works sections. They were a terrible mess, and I did what I thought looked right.Spylab 16:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

the annotations have been cleaned up and your errors corrected. the bibliography was repaired and the names corrected from the ones you made. caps were not necessary for the titles of the recorded material since braithwaite rarely uses them ishaq

Citations, irrelevant links, bibliography
A few notes on my recent edits:

1) All references have been replaced with citation requests as none of the sources provided backed up the associated information and claims.

2) I have removed all but one link under "See also" as the article fails to indicate their relevance.

3) I have removed two sentences I assume to be vandalism.

4) Formatting and incorrect hyperlink aside, I have left the bibliography alone. However, I have not been able to determine whether More at 7:30 has been published (Speed, thrash, death: Alamo, B. C. appears to be a self-publshed chapbook).

While I've left the "Works also appear in:" subsection alone, I would argue that it be scrubbed. One vanity page aside, I have yet to see a listing of periodical and anthology contributions for any specific author. I would argue that bibliographies should be limited to books the author has written or edited (as an anthologist), otherwise any bibliography runs the risk of becoming overly long and trivial. I welcome discussion on this point. As it is, the subsection is a bit of a mess, appearing to have no organization. The same might be said about the "Recordings" section, which also appears quite trivial in nature.

The remainder of my edits concerned clean-up and an attempt to meet various Wikipedia guidelines concerning format. More is required.Victoriagirl 01:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

PROD and citation issues
I note that the PROD placed earlier today by Sandstein has been removed by 66.183.173.185 without explanation or edit summary. As I think it likely that Braithwaite meets the notability guidelines set out by WP:BIO, I have chosen not to return the notice. However, I think the article as it currently stands does not address the issue of notability, and so can appreciate Sandstein's concerns.

The problem regarding notability lies in part with the citations provided - which in no way support the accompanying claims. I touched on this issue in the above comment, which was made after the removal of the article's references. Since most of these citations have since been returned by 66.183.173.185, it would appear that a more detailed explanation is in order:

1) The first citation, intended to support the claim that Braithwaite "has been linked to the New Narrative movement" makes no mention of his name.

2) The second citation intended to support the statement "Braithwaite's work has been compared to Irvine Welsh, Dennis Cooper, George Orwell, William S. Burroughs, David Wojnarowicz and Amiri Baraka", makes no mention of Cooper, Orwell, Burroughs, Wojnarowicz or Baraka. While it is true that a brief comparison is made between Braithwaite's Wigger and Welsh's Trainspotting, this is done within the format of a joint book review. To quote the comparison in its entirety:

"Wigger, Vancouverite Andrew [sic] Braithwaite's first novel covers similar terrain, with the added overlay of gay S&M sex. Like Trainspotting, this very slim book (87 pp) consists of separate short stories with overlapping characters.

Where Welsh's book is full of words, overflowing with language and incident like he can't stop himself writing, Braithwaite's text is lonely on the page, fighting a losing battle with the white space of the margins."

I would argue this is not what is meant when we say that the work of one writer has been compared to that of another. I look forward to reading the opinions of others in this matter.

3) The third citation comes courtesy of the forum at the Massive Attack website and follows the sentence "His earlier youthful fascination with T.S. Eliot and Jean Genet underscores his dub & scratch literature set within a failed late 20th century reconstruction." Not only does the forum post fail to support the sentence, it contains no mentions of Eliot or Genet.

4) While the fourth citation, a review of Bluesprint, an anthology of Black British Columbian literature, mentions Braithwaite, it does not mention New Palestine or Victoria, British Columbia. Indeed, the reviewer writes that the setting of Braithwaite's work is Vancouver.

5) The final citation is intended to support the assertion that Braithwaite's musical influences are "Duke Ellington, Brian Wilson, Lee Scratch Perry, Sonic Youth and Einsturzende Neubauten", yet makes no mention of any of theese performers. In fact, the only mention of Braithwaite is found in the announcement of a 21 word announcement of a panel discussion from 19 October 2001.

Long, I know, but I don't think my post above did the trick. Victoriagirl 17:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, this is just a technical note. Once a WP:PROD tag is removed, it may not be replaced - a WP:AfD discussion is the next venue to get the article deleted if the issues you mention are not addressed. Your above text would make for a good nomination. Sandstein 20:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I note that references have again replaced the citation requests. Some of the sources are new, some are old ones recently deleted for issues mentioned in my previous post. Unfortunately, the same problems remain. In the interests of clarity:


 * 1) Braithwaite is not mentioned in the new citation intended to support the claim that Braithwaite "has been linked to the New Narrative movement".


 * 2) The second citation - discussed above - has simply been restored without comment. Again, it in no way backs up the sentence it is intended to support.


 * 3) The third citation - discussed above - has also been restored without comment. It remains irrelevant to the claim.


 * 4) The fourth citation - discussed above - has been restored without comment.


 * 5) The new reference for the fifth citation request is a link to the amazon.com page of Braithwaite's book Ratz Are Nice (PSP). Why this is so, I cannot say as there is no mention of Braitwaite's musical influences.


 * I've restored the citation requests and have made a minor WP:MOS correction. Victoriagirl 21:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've again edited the article, repairing WP:MOS issues, correcting punctuation and, in one case, deleting a word. I've also replaced six of the growing collection of sources with citation requests:


 * 1) "...he has been linked to the 'New Narrative' movement..." The source provided, a publisher's page for an anthology entitled Biting the Error: Writers Explore Narrative, makes no mention of any such movement (though I do know it exists). I imagine it likely that the movement and Braithwaite's relationship are discussed in the book. Unfortunately, there is neither discussion nor mention made in this particular reference.


 * 2) "...a term coined by Robert Gluck." This reference to the term "New Narrative" having originated with Gluck is meant to be supported by a piece from Lodestar Quarterly. Although "New Narrative" is discussed, there is no mention of the term having originated with Gluck.


 * 3) "...Braithwaite's work has been compared to Irvine Welsh, Louis-Ferdinand Céline, Dennis Cooper, George Orwell, and William S. Burroughs among other writers who defy definition, cross and connect broundries of language, sound and narrative." As I've written twice above, the source provides no such comparisons.


 * 4) "His earlier youthful fascination with T.S. Eliot and Jean Genet underscores his dub & scratch literature set within a failed late 20th century reconstruction." Again, as I've written twice above, the reference does not include this information.


 * 5) "His stories and novels are centered in a neighbourhood called New Palestine, a surreal post-punk and industrial hip hop community struggling against a wasteland in Victoria, British Columbia." As I've written above, the source provided makes no mention of New Palestine or Victoria.


 * 6) "His musical influences include Duke Ellington, Brian Wilson, H.R. of the Bad Brains, Lee Scratch Perry, Sonic Youth and Einsturzende Neubauten." The source makes no such claim and, in fact, contains not one of the influences mentioned.


 * I assume that 66.183.173.185's edits are being made in good faith, and again encourage the user to participate in this discussion. Victoriagirl 22:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Building upon the final edit of the thirteen made today, I'm about to make several changes - nearly all of which concern sources and citation requests:


 * 1) "...he has been linked to the 'New Narrative' movement..." The new reference provided for this claim makes no mention of the New Narrative movement. Moreover, the source is a blog - as such its use runs counter to Wiki policy ("Self-published sources, such as personal websites and blogs, must never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP.")


 * 2 & 3) "...a term coined by Robert Gluck." The first reference quotes Dennis Cooper as stating that the term originated with Steve Abbott. I've substituted Abbott's name for that of Gluck. As the accompanying source provides no indication as to who created the term, it has been deleted.


 * 4) "...Braithwaite's work has been compared to Hubert Selby Jr...." The source for this claim is limited to one sentence in an eleven sentence book review, included in a web-based "'zine" produced and written from 1996 to 2001 by Tim Murphy . I believe this runs counter to Wiki policy, specifically Using questionable or self-published sources. I would be interested in hearing from others on this issue. I have deleted the reference.


 * 5) ""His earlier youthful fascination with T.S. Eliot and Jean Genet underscores his dub & scratch literature set within a failed late 20th century reconstruction." As with past sources provided for this statement, the information it is meant to support is not provided - Eliot and Genet are not mentioned, nor are the terms dub or scratch literature used.


 * (Note: The citation request following the statement "His stories and novels are centered in a neighbourhood called New Palestine, a surreal post-punk and industrial hip hop community struggling against a wasteland in Victoria, British Columbia" was removed without a reference being provided. The request has been restored.)


 * 6) "Braithwaite's work has a [sic] 'the sublime impenetrability'..." The quotation comes from the same blog cited earlier. As this runs against Wiki policy, the quotation and source have been deleted.


 * 7) "His musical influences include Duke Ellington, Brian Wilson..." The source, an electronic mailing list, runs counter to the Wiki policy discussed above. That said, it would appear that this particular correspondence was written by Braithwaite (it is, at the very least signed with his name). However, Ellington is not mentioned in the post. While it is true that Brian Wilson is mentioned - as are the Ramones, Cream, Hawkwind, Howling Wolf, UFO, 1/2 Japanese and several others - no claim to inspiration is made. The source has been removed.


 * 8) "His musical influences include ... H.R. of the Bad Brains, Lee Scratch Perry, Sonic Youth and Einsturzende Neubauten." As with previous citations placed in support of this statement, the link provided to indymedia.org (and duplicated under external links) does not reflect the statement. I've again returned the citation request. Victoriagirl 22:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

--Slp1 20:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have checked Victoriagirl's assessment and agree that the citations proposed do not do the job in the main. They had been reinserted, but I have removed them again, bar a new one from a Dodie Bellamy article regarding "sublime impenetrability" that seems to me to make the grade as a reliable source.  I have also removed an unsourced section called "Controversy".  This was totally unsourced, and since this is a Living Person, editors are requested to be very vigilant to remove any material that is unsourced.  For this reason I am very uncomfortable with leaving all the unsourced information in the article for an extended period, though what is there now seems fairly uncontroversial to this layperson.  However, I suggest that either the information is sourced very quickly from reliable sources, or this article should stubbed to whatever can be established.

Cause of death?
what did he die of? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.71.111.158 (talk) 01:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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