Talk:Lebanon/Archive 5

Good Article nomination PASS
I've been watching this page for a while, and I'm going to make a judgment call. I see a nontrivial number of tags on the page, and I see other spots that should have such tags. On the other hand, there has been significant improvement in this area since I first mentioned it. Most significantly of all, I see a dedicated group of editors working daily to improve the article. I'm going to place my trust in your editors, knowing you will continue your excellent work, improving its verification of facts, and monitoring for NPOV. PASS. --Ling.Nut 02:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sweet! That's good news! FYI - I uploaded a couple of pics into the article...if you think they can be more appropriately arranged, captioned, etc...please do so.  I thought I would help out with the need for more pics.  --Xtcrider 05:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yay! Thanks Ling! We'll see you on FA discussions. Lestat deLioncourt  talk 07:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yay!... super sweet!... Long Live Lebanon and its dedicated group of Editors!.. :) Lcnj 18:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment on pics and FAC???
Hey all, just wanted to mention that I remember reading somewhere that it was a good thing if the pics in an article (FA I think) should alternate from left to right, but I look it up to make sure. If that's the case, I don't think that would be a bad idea. Secondly, I see that a couple of pics have copyvio on 'em...I can provide more if needed. Also...I have a slow weekend ahead of me...and I am quite willing to put in some really big time to, perhaps, advance this article to FAC??? Is it possible? Thoughts? (I don't think it will happend in a weekend, of course...but there seems to be a major effort with this article! --Xtcrider 17:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right about the effort thing, but getting the article to FA status will take a minimal two weeks I think. Your enthusiasm is contagious though :). I think the best thing you can do now is make the layout changes to the pics (if you like) and add ones where appropriate, but beware, having too many images is frowned upon. I will be working on the second AUB pic (it's just a misunderstanding) but the other one I don't know about, so you might as well go ahead and replace it. Also, make sure to see if you can contribute to the Culture stubs (add only material you can reference please) and perhaps exercising your Google muscles and trying to replace some of those fact tags. There's big room for improvement and you're free to choose any thing you like to work on. Be bold and stay away from POV! Lestat deLioncourt  talk 20:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You both are contagious. Unfortunately, I have little time to spare in general esepcially this weekend.  I would like to introduce more pictures about Lebanon to which I hold the copyright...  In very simple terms and briefly how can I upload them to Wikipedia?... Thanks... Lcnj 23:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You can do this using Wikimedia Commons. George Saliba 23:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The Biggy: Crowd Estimates
I know what you're thinking: here we go again. But seriously we need to reach consensus on this issue. I just saw the mentioned crowd estimate for the December 1 demonstration and frankly I was appalled. I know this sounds very POV, but I'm just using common sense. The attendants of Pierre Gemayel's funeral numbered about 800,000 (or so the source says) and they just about filled Matyrs' Square. During this demonstration, both Martyrs' Sqaure and Riyad al-Soloh Square were full and people were spilling over onto the surrounding streets (all this is heavily documents by all Lebanese media), and you're telling me they also numbered 800,000 too. I personally find that hard to believe. Plus, the CNN estimate is 1.2 million (I'll see if I can provide a reference) and the Reuters estimate for the Gemayel funeral was in the tens of thousands. So as you can see we have radically different reports of the same event, by supposedly (or as Joey would say, supposably) objective media. Obviously, we need to somehow standarize the way Wikipedia reports crowd estimates, maybe by choosing one source and sticking to it. I still don't have an exact idea of what we should do. Any thoughts? Lestat deLioncourt  talk 14:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably the simplest solution would be providing two numbers, almost always, unless there's overwhelming consensus on a single one. Something along the lines of "An estimated 800,000 to 1,2 million people attended the demostration." - Best regards, Evv 15:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, good idea. But consider how it would sound if we said: "An estimated 30,000 to 800,000 attended Gemayel's funeral." That just seems like pure guessing. I'm leaning towards removing mention of estimates all together and just using qualitative descriptions: large, very large, small, etc... (as un-encyclopedic and discouraged as it is, it's still better than 30,000-800,000). Again, what say you? Lestat deLioncourt  talk 16:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * lol Sounds funny :-) But are there really such differences ? I looked at the Reuters link you provided, and the "Tens of thousands of Lebanese" it mentions appears to be just a lazy journalist's way of conveying the idea of "lots, multitude, big crowd" rather than a serious attempt to quantify the attendance. In any case, to further simplify the process, any media report that gives such a different estimate without providing the sources it's based upon should be discarded. - Regards, Evv 17:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes there are even larger differences. With Lebanese media the difference is at 1 million+ between the varying estimates. And that's my point. Why should we trust one source over another? e.g. Why CNN and not Reuters? Why the Herald Tribune but not Time? We ought to have certain standards to stick to. Second, the media sources themselves quote "weasel sources" and sometimes fake ones. I read a piece in a Lebanese newspaper (Assafir) a couple of days ago where the Lebanese police formally denied any claims that they were providing crowd estimates. However, most media sources start their estimates with "the Lebanese police...". I'm still sticking to my proposition of doing away with estimates all together. Lestat deLioncourt  talk 18:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I see. However, as long as all estimates remain within the same order of magnitude, in opposition to a ridiculous "30,000 to 800,000", I still think that reflecting media reports by giving two numbers is the best. I would use "estimated at 800,000source to 1,2 millionsource" for normal differences, and "variously reported as 800,000source to 4 millionsource" for big gaps. Thus any discerning reader will understand both the general magnitudes involved and the fact that some (many?, most?, all?) estimates are politically motivated fabrications. He will then choose what to believe, if anything at all :-) - Regards, Evv 19:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC


 * Good reasoning :)... I'll see what we can do here. Thanks. Lestat deLioncourt  talk 20:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Palestinian refugees and the "Demographics" section of the article
I was looking over the article in order to fill in the Fact tags...and I found this source (http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/haddad.html#Views%20on%20Naturalization) which seems to contradict the follwing sentence in the demographics section: It is not only impossible for them to own property,[17] but prior to June 7, 2005 there were 72 professions that they were not allowed to practice in Lebanon.[18] In recent years the idea of granting Palestinians Lebanese citizenship has been discussed; however this notion has been rejected by most of the Lebanese and Palestinian communities. The reference I have provided seems to contradict everything except the 72 professions. Since there is no sourced info pertaining to the above (except the property part), I was wondering if someone wanted to comment before I made changes? The only question here is that the source is from Simon Haddad, AUB...I wouldn't have a clue if this person is famous for a certain POV or not, in which case I wouldn't want to use it to begin with... --Xtcrider 05:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure of the source, but it seems reasonable. Does the paper contradict the "It is not only impossible for them to own property"? I only ask because that's the only point that is really cited (aside from the jobs), and is accurate afaik. I think they don't legally own the land they live on and build on, and it's still considered temporary or somesuch, though I'm not 100% sure. The rest of that stuff is still unsourced, and I would vote to replace it if you find evidence (such as this) to the contrary. George Saliba 05:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it says they "have rights of property ownership", which contradicts the other source. However, it supports the 72 job thingy. Thanks for responding George.(http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/haddad.html#The%20Palestinian%20Community%20in%20Lebanon) 4th paragraph. --Xtcrider 05:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Correct you are. Looking at the article that is currently cited for this sentence, the relevant section is "In Lebanon, special provisions in the law prohibit Palestinian RD holders from owning property. In some exceptional cases, it is possible to buy a personal residence, but the procedure is expensive and takes years." This doesn't exactly match what the current Lebanon article says, and it doesn't exactly conflict with the reference you found which states "they have rights of property ownership, investment and employment by permit" - I'm not sure if this means "employment by permit", or "property ownership by permit, investment by permit, and employment by permit". I would suggest updating to match something between the two statements - perhaps they can own land, but only with some permit which is difficult to attain, or takes a long, expensive procedure to obtain? George Saliba 06:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I know from first hand-experience that Palestinian refugee are in no way legally allowed to own any property . Regardless of what any source says, this is the fact. Now, what I think is that some typo is interfering with the meaning here. Let's look at the sentence in context:

Only a small fraction has been able to acquire Lebanese citizenship. The greatest majority remains stateless; they were treated as foreigners, they have rights of property ownership, investment and employment by permit. Obtaining a work permit remains a complex and lengthy process that offers neither social security nor insurance benefits nor a regular wage increase, and becomes invalid when its holder is laid off the job. Moreover, employment in large institutions is largely closed to Palestinians because it is governed by sectarian rules.(10) Palestinians, however continue to be excluded from more than 72 professions. These restrictions force them to work in the informal sector with low wages, insecurity and no benefits.


 * Let's take a close look at the sentence flow and translate to Simple English:
 * Sentence 1: few refugees have obtained citizenship. The author is telling you that refugees have been mostly excluded from Lebanese society.
 * Sentence 2: refugees are statless. The author emphasizes how refugees have no home.
 * Sentence 3: refugees are treated as foreigners. Again, the author is talking about the refugees' exclusion.
 * Sentence 4: refugees are allowed to work, own property, and invest. How does the author support his main idea of the refugees' exclusion? By telling you that they are allowed the same rights as everyone else? Does that make sense?
 * The paragraph goes on to explain how difficult it is for refugees to work.
 * I think it's a little more than obvious that something's wrong with the way the paragraph is flowing. Wouldn't it be more logical to say "they don't have rights of property..." rather detract from the main focus of the refugees' deprivation?


 * And finally, I also support deleting the last two sentences (marked with the fact tags). I couldn't find any sources for them anywhere. Lestat deLioncourt  talk 11:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding the last two statements thing, I tend to agree. I looked for references to both, and while I found some poll data that indirectly refuted the second (polls asking refugees if they want to return to Israel with Israeli citizenship, returns to Palestine with Palestinian citizenship, return to the area with both citizenships, etc. - not directly asking if they wanted Lebanese citizenship, regardless of their right to return), I was having a hard time finding factual data to directly support either statement. My guess is that the issue of Lebanese citizenship for refugees has been discussed, but this is such a vague statement (who discussed it, were they a biased group, did discussions invole the refugees themselves, when did they discuss it, etc.) that I'm not sure if it's encyclopedic.


 * As for the refugees owning land or not issue, I honestly have no idea. Maybe this is a case of catch 22? If, by law, for example (I'm making this up), Palestinian refugees were allowed to own land, but only if they purchased a land permit from the government, but the government, by law, couldn't sell land permits to Palestinian refugees, conflicting references like this may occur. I don't know this particular case, but catch 22s like my example aren't uncommon in many government laws, and can lead to confusions such as this one. Just my two cents. — George Saliba[ talk ] 12:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, unless we can find some sources for those statements, we should probably remove them. I certainly don't doubt what Lestat is saying, but I think we all agree that these statements need some kind of source...I'm going to remove statements (and work on the other Fact tags). --Xtcrider 18:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * FYI - I can't find a source for this either: The Palestinians have become a vital part of the Lebanese society, with many of them reaching high posts,(...)[citation needed] Since I don't live there, I don't have a way of even knowing, let alone providing a source/reference. Lestat, you are obviously in a better position to know than I am...do you know of any Palestinians that are in high posts in Lebanon?  I don't want to seem anti-palestinian here...just trying to keep this article to facts only...cheers. --Xtcrider 19:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe you're right Xtcrider. I repeat my support for deleting the last two unsourced sentences, and I'm leaning towards deleting the one you mention too. I have yet to hear of a Palestinian who reached a political/financially influential position in Lebanon, but I don't know everything, so I'm going to do all the fact-checking possible and will give my opinion in 24 hours. You go ahead and do whatever you like with these statements. In Wikipedia, ideally every sentence should be referenced, and if it isn't, that means it doesn't belong here. So, weed them out! And don't feel like you're being anti-Palestinian at all... I don't see why you should. Though I would doubt that I am "obviously in a better position". I'd give anything to get out of here lol. Lestat deLioncourt  talk 19:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Copy vio found
Not sure who created this paragraph: The urban population, concentrated mainly in Beirut and Mount Lebanon, is noted for its commercial enterprise.[19] A century and a half of migration and return have produced Lebanese commercial networks around the globe from North and South America to Europe, the Persian Gulf, and Africa.[citation needed] Lebanon has a high proportion of skilled labour comparable to most European nations and the highest among Arab countries.[20], but it's the same as this link, 2nd page, 4th paragraph: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/documents/41e1aa0d7d676.pdf I'm going to fix it now...just an FYI...also, to any editor out there...please no copy vios! --Xtcrider 20:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

here's a reference
Please keep up the good work on the references. Here's one:

CIA World Factbook 2001 File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Family remittances, banking services,. manufactured and farm exports, and international aid provided the main. sources of foreign exchange. Lebanon's ... teacherlink.ed.usu.edu/tlresources/reference/2001WorldFactbook/LEBANON.PDF --Ling.Nut 20:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I added it in the appropriate place. --Ling.Nut 12:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

copyvio in education section
Much of the section on education, added 23 July 2006, seems copy/pasted from this 2004 student essay: Public schools altogether amount to a total of 192 high schools and 1125 schools with ... Centers for vocational high schools, in Lebanon, amount to 11; ...

http://csrd.lau.edu.lb/Publications/StudentReports/Education%20in%20Lebanon.htm

Suggest removing whatever has been copied, until you can find the original source (mentioned in the student's essay, but I couldn't find it) and cite that. --Ling.Nut 14:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed the entire education section, pending careful checking for copyvio.
 * I looked at it again and it looks like everything but perhaps one or two sentences was directly copy/pasted. You can compare the diff above to the most recent diff.
 * --Ling.Nut 15:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's a table to make comparing the two versions easier: Lestat deLioncourt  talk 16:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Good work, LestatdeLioncourt. :-)
 * There's lotsa good info here. I think if you can find the original sources of the school report, you can rewrite this section in a valid manner. Unfortunately, it looks like a job that will take at least a couple hours.
 * As it stands, though, there is just way too much copy/paste going on. I really can't see putting any of it back on the page.. unless it is done very carefully. :-)
 * --Ling.Nut 18:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes it does look like it's gonna take some time to figure out how to reinsert the information, but the article will never satisfy the comprehensiveness criterion for FA if we don't have anything on education, so it's not really like we have a choice here :). Lestat deLioncourt  talk 19:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I poked around a bit and found this; maybe it will help:
 * http://www.undp-pogar.org/countries/stats.asp?cid=9&gid=9
 * --Ling.Nut 22:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot, Ling Nut. The page does have a lot of valuable information. Lestat deLioncourt  talk 13:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)