Talk:Lech-Lecha

Merge from Abraham and Lot's conflict
It is proposed that Abraham and Lot's conflict be merged with this article. There does not appear to be any content in the other article that needs to be moved, so it can be turned into a redirect to this article#sub-section as appropriate. —Telpardec TALK  05:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Content is duplicated in
 * 1) Abraham
 * 2) Lot (biblical person)
 * 3) Lech-Lecha
 * Oppose merge. I think we need more bibilical articles, not fewer. This is a notable incident, but only gets a few lines in Lech-Lecha, which is an already large (80k) article about a much bigger portion of text. There is, in fact, content here - the Hollar picture. Another reason I oppose the merge is that for many (Christian) readers, the story of "Abraham and Lot's conflict" will be familiar, but the whole concept of Lech-Lecha will be foreign. StAnselm (talk) 06:38, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge. Lech-Lecha addresses a Jewish Torah reading, and does not attempt to cover all of the relationship of Abraham and Lot, particularly in Christianity or Islam.  Couldn't "see also" treatment in both articles address the concern? -- Dauster (talk) 04:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. The Abraham and Lot's conflict article was a translation from the Hebrew wikipedia 3 July 2009, associated with Lech-Lecha in the lede. (The Hebrew wiki included commentary by Rashi and Ramban.) Like Lech-Lecha, it only has a few lines, but appears bigger by fully quoting Genesis 13:5-12. The Lot (biblical person) article has a copy of the Hollar picture, and there is room in the Abraham article for the picture as well. Both those articles cover all the essential details. The "Abraham and Lot's conflict" article is mis-named, since there was no conflict between them, but among the herdsmen having too small of a grazing area among the Canaanite and Perizzite inhabitants of that area. Lech-Lecha uses the title "Abram and Lot divide the land" for the incident. The Abraham article uses the title "Abram and Lot separate" for the incident. The Lot (biblical person) article has it as part of a larger "plain of Jordan" section. The Hollar picture refers to the incident as "the separation of Abraham and Lot", (but technically he was still called Abram then. :)
 * Merge - Plainly, Abraham and Lot's conflict is misnamed, redundant and unnecessary. —Telpardec TALK  07:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * OK – A copy of the Hollar picture has been added to the Abraham article. All the objections to the move were answered in the comment above. It looks like we are ready to proceed with the merge, that is, the redirect. To address the concerns that the Jewish version would be "foreign" to non-Jews, I have added a "see also" in the "Abram and Lot divide the land" section here to both the Abraham article and the Lot (biblical person) article. That also addresses the concern that this article is skimpy on details. (There are links to the complete scripture text in side by side Hebrew and English.) Are there are any other concerns before the intended transition 2 days from now, Sunday 26 February 2012? Thanks. —Telpardec TALK  18:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No, we are not ready to proceed with the merge. I think you should get an uninvolved admin to close the discussion and see if there is a consensus to merge. StAnselm (talk) 21:39, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - I agree with User:StAnselm that we need more biblical articles. However, this page's topics are already covered on other articles. If this event was controversial or if there was some in depth biblical analysis for the separation of Abram and Lot, then I would support this article as a stand alone page, but it's not. Therefore, I contest that this page be redirected or otherwise deleted, standing more on the side of User:Telpardec. Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 05:53, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep article and Oppose merge. Per final result/s of Articles for deletion/non-notable bible-division articles (22 February 2008) and the related Articles for deletion/Noach (parsha) (17 July 2012). Thank you. IZAK (talk) 08:39, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion is moot
There have now been two AfDs to Keep this (and similar) article/s, see Articles for deletion/non-notable bible-division articles (22 February 2008) and the related Articles for deletion/Noach (parsha) (17 July 2012). Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

 * REQUEST: Please see the centralized discussion about this subject, relating to sources, links, content, etc at Talk:Chayei Sarah (parsha). Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Layout
To help improve this article, I propose that the layout resemble the actual parashah divisions in the Torah that way it looks more in line with the subject, rather than chapter breakouts. This may help others, outside of Judaism, understand the construct of the weekly Torah portions. It will also help the page to become more distinct from the Abraham page.

Sample of contents

Divisions
 * 1 Genesis 12:1-9
 * Mishna
 * Rabbi Berekiah
 * (Additional Rabbinic interpretations)
 * 2 Genesis 12:10-20;13:1-18
 * Rabbi Helbo
 * Baraita
 * (Additional Rabbinic interpretations)
 * 3 Genesis 14:1-24
 * (Additional Rabbinic interpretations)
 * 4 Genesis 15:1-21
 * (Additional Rabbinic interpretations)
 * 5 Genesis 16:1-16
 * (Additional Rabbinic interpretations)
 * 6 Genesis 17:1-14
 * (Additional Rabbinic interpretations)
 * 7 Genesis 17:15-27
 * (Additional Rabbinic interpretations)
 * 8 Further Rabbinic interpretations
 * 5 Commandments
 * 6 Haftarah
 * 7 In the liturgy
 * 8 The Weekly Maqam
 * 9 See also
 * 10 Further reading

Thanks,  &mdash;  Jasonasosa  17:48, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that constructive suggestion. I've started doing changes that go somewhat in that direction.  Please check out Devarim (parsha), Va'etchanan, Eikev, Re'eh, Shoftim (parsha), Ki Teitzei, Ki Tavo, Nitzavim, and Vayelech.  I'm working through the parshyot one by one and hope to get to Genesis within a couple of weeks.  Thanks again for your suggestions. -- Dauster (talk) 18:44, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That is a great layout! May I recommend one thing though?...
 * The first reading
 * The first reading (עליה, aliyah)... <- right here should have the scripture
 * as in:
 * The first reading
 * The first reading (Genesis 12:1-9)...
 * I don't believe that this (עליה, aliyah) is all that necessary; having the scripture division would be more beneficial.
 * Thanks,  &mdash;  Jasonasosa  18:51, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

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