Talk:Lee Hasdell

Date format
I have no major problems with the change to December 1, 2007 format in the tables. I had changed the earlier 12-01-2007 format to 2007-12-01 for two reasons:
 * It is unambiguous; that's the only all-digit format acceptable in accordance with WP:DATE and for good reason. That always-eight-digits YYYY-MM-DD format is never used with the day and month switched, unlike all-digit formats with the year at the end.
 * It is the only format which will sort properly in a sortable table without being linked.

The current one does work; but it often leaves that field split between two lines. There is an alternative; linked dated do work properly with a three-letter month abbreviation, so you could use Dec 1, 2007 instead, changing all the spelled out months to the three letter abbreviation. and it will display in accordance with user preferences, and I'm assuming it will also sort properly in a sortable table. It would make the tables look better. Gene Nygaard (talk) 21:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Article cleanup
I have per WP:V and WP:RS removed all unverifiable claims and claims from non-reliable sources. Reliably sourced additions are still welcome. The previous revision of the page is available here. -- aktsu (t / c) 06:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And particular comment via the COI discussion: WP:NOR ("no original research") also applies, and this and WP:V are core Wikipedia policies that carry very strong weight. Wikipedia doesn't allow unpublished personal knowledge in articles (and it's not even acceptable as holding material awaiting verification). Gordonofcartoon (talk) 09:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Im not happy one bit, i think i am going to do what i was going to do anyway and create a website. I would love to know why you are working so hard to impact this page ? i gave you my reason! The changes you just made are against what we agreed with for example his mma record. I have told you that i will get sources for the rest including kickboxing record. just leave the page how it was, i am still working on it. The thing is no one knows more then him other then me and him, so when other people get involved in stating stuff that aint correct, or removing things that are correct. It irritates me. Looks like i will create a web page but if i do im taking this article off. I first put it on wikipedia, i will take it off. Not one person has added anything positive. When ever i go and edit over pages they say the same thing to me like they own it. Why shouldnt i feel like that when i have even more reason to take it personally. You can get me deleted off wikipedia, but you just cant remove what is true even if they havnt got links because i said i will get them. I'll post my personal evidence on youtube if i have to. What makes all these websites like sherdog etc more reliable when they allways make mistakes like date of birth, record for example. They dont know Hasdell, when his my dad, i got tons of information that i want to put on here. Just give me that chance to find the sources. I shouldnt even justify myself to you, you obviously dont work for wikipedia! ClaudioProductions (talk) 16:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's simply how Wikipedia works. I and everyone else here want nothing but to make this a good article, but following Wikipedia policy the only way that's going to happen is by referencing verifiable and reliable sources. Maybe that can be said to be a flaw of WP, as is keeps valuable information from being added, but as it stands those are the current policies and we have to follow them. Please don't think we want to "own" the page and destroy it, we're all here to improve the encyclopedia - but that has to be done following established policies. Sherdog might not be perfect, but in most cases it's all we have. Don't think I enjoy deleting information from the article, but it's something that has to be done for the page to comply with WP policies. -- aktsu (t / c) 17:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ---Wikipedia is not your webhost!--- Cf you want to create a website about your father, do so -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  01:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I made a post at the reliable sources noticeboard to get opinions on whether the material on sfuk.lycos.com is reliable and can be used, see Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. -- aktsu (t / c) 01:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Look before you go and revert it again. There is no need to change the mma record because i have found a source for that, plus that took me ages as well. Also the shootboxing challenge source is on youtube (video proof). I am going to try and find sources for the kickboxing section now. ClaudioProductions (talk) 00:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, if you find reliable sources for something you add that to the cleaned up version. I don't see how you come to the conclusion that just because you found a source for a single line of text, it's OK to restore all unsourced material. -- aktsu (t / c) 01:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And after seeing your other sources; please take the http://kok.s8.xrea.com/rings.html page to WP:RSN and let's see what they think. You can not use a link to copyrighted material on Youtube as a source. Also, as far as I saw the video didn't verify anything other than that there were two guys fighting somewhere, someplace at some time. -- aktsu (t / c) 01:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Sources not used in article
Possibly useful sources not reviewed:
 * Full Contact Fighter magazine November 2002: "Meet fighter/promoter/trainer Lee Hasdell, Godfather of UK MMA"

Unreliable sources:
 * (States British Muay Thai Champion)
 * (Various info)
 * (Record of RINGS fights, translation)

-- aktsu (t / c) 01:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

http://kok.s8.xrea.com/rings.html - why is this source unreliable ? ClaudioProductions (talk) 21:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a self-published source, i.e. a personal website. -- aktsu (t / c) 09:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * == Rebuilding ==

Now im back lets try and peacefully resolve this page. I would like you to help me put the information that i originally put up, but all sourced. How do i prove it is Hasdell in thoughs videos ? could i get Information that needs sourcing such as oktagon challenge etc on the ssj studio website, and then use that as a source ? thanksClaudioProductions (talk) 19:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * (I moved this down to a new heading to make everything easier to keep track of) Awesome, hopefully we can get the article back on it's feet by WP's standards :) From WP:V: "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves [...]", and from WP:BLP: "Subjects may provide material about themselves through press releases, personal websites, or blogs.". So yeah, I'd say anything on SSJ website published by Hasdell should be good to go. If he would take the time to put up a page about himself which we could use as a source, that would be seriously awesome. -- aktsu (t / c) 09:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I am sorry for being so stubborn. I agree with you 100% and understand how wikipedia works now. So the sources we need for this article are as followed
 * Kickboxing background (european title fights etc)
 * Fight with crop cop
 * Shoot boxing challenge
 * All of the fights that do not appear in the sherdog database
 * Accomplishments ?
 * Any more ?

I have begun re doing the media critism bit. I am using the information straight from the source. Lee will put all the things from my origonal edit (that need sourcing) on the ssj studio website. One question, surely we can trust that RINGS website. It is the entire fight history of Fighting Network RINGS. There is no other website like it. I did complete Lee's record through my own research (scrapbooks, news paper cuttings, videos and general knowledge of his career) but then came across this website to confirm his record and thought i could use it as a source. Is there any way around it possibly ? Thank You ClaudioProductions (talk) 17:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to say yes, but I doubt it. It's a personal website like anyone could publish, so without knowing who wrote it (if it was say made by an expert on RINGS it would probably be OK) it's a no-go. It's actually too bad because I don't doubt it's authenticity, but there's no way of verifying it's reliability. :\ Also just so you know, reports from newspapers etc. are just as good as online sources, so I you got any just cite them with the cite news template. Some other thing we miss/probably should have is events he have promoted, some info for a "personal life" section and something on his martial arts background.-- aktsu (t / c) 21:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok good. I will try and use that template for the newspaper reports i have. What about magazine articles ? doi use the same template ? I have about 7 magazine articles and 3 scrapbooks with newspaper cuttings. So i have alot of information. Just need to find the most appropiate way of getting them on to wikipedia. ClaudioProductions (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, cite news is good for magazines as well. At Citation templates there's a list of all the cite templates with examples. -- aktsu (t / c) 13:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi the page is slowly improving. Just wondering why this link keeps being removed http://sfuk.tripod.com/2001/news21feb01.html ? thanks. ClaudioProductions (talk) 14:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Non reliable. See []. -- aktsu (t / c) 14:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh ok, it is a official SFUK news page though. Sfuk has been around for about 10 years now as uk mixed martial arts base. Actually im pretty sure it was the first UK mma website and company. I am still searching though my articles so may come across sources for the parts that need citations ok. ClaudioProductions (talk) 15:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Losses removed from mixed martial arts career section - Wins removed from mixed martial arts career section -
 * Hans Nijman
 * Cees Bezems
 * Joop Kasteel
 * Masayuki Naruse
 * Hiromitsu Kanehara
 * Gilbert Yvel
 * Hiromitsu Kanehara
 * Dave van der Veen
 * Sander Thonhauser
 * Peter Dijkman
 * Dave van der Veen
 * Ricardo Fyeet
 * Ryuki Ueyama
 * Achmed Labasanov —Preceding unsigned comment added by ClaudioProductions (talk • contribs) 22:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

(copied from my talkpage, prefer to keep Hasdell business here -- aktsu (t / c) 23:10, 16 January 2009 (UTC)) I removed wins and losses from this section of the article, why do we need every fight in this section ? Theres a mma record table at the bottom. This section looks too long, do not accuse me of just removing losses. What other refs do we need ? thanks ClaudioProductions (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Because a section on his "Mixed martial arts career" should include as much as possible from his mixed martial arts career, not a selection of fights - and especially not a selection of fights removing multiple losses. When it comes to refs we need as many as possible, especially easily verifiable online sources so I'd appreciate it if we kept the notice there. -- aktsu (t / c) 23:10, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I have removed just as many wins though. Yh that is ok i'll have to get some sources on the ssj website. thanks ClaudioProductions (talk) 23:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Still don't see a valid reason for removing anything, as I said we're writing about his fighting career here not about a few selected fights. Who are we to decide which fights should be mentioned or not? I really don't see your reasoning and think you should restore them. -- aktsu (t / c) 23:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Restored them myself. Don't see a valid point for excluding anything, especially not someone with a COI removing multiple losses. Removing some wins as well does not make it "OK" in my eyes. -- aktsu (t / c) 11:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Your basically dictating the article, the same in which you accuse me of! ClaudioProductions (talk) 12:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Because I don't want you removing mention of sourced losses in the prose? Comment on the content not the editor please, I think I've made my points for not removing them very clear. Feel free to make counter-arguments if you believe there's a good reason they should not be mentioned. -- aktsu (t / c) 13:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

problem with a sentence in the lede
the lede states: "He has been referred to as the Godfather of UK MMA, and was the first person in the UK to engage in what could be considered a no holds barred competition." with the source being http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=4185&zoneid=3. now, mmaweekly might be a reliable source for mma info -- i don't know -- but the problem is the wording of the claim. the sentence from mmaweekly actually says "The U.K. MMA scene has arguably been around since 1996 when Lee Hasdell became the first person in the UK to engage in what could be considered NHB competition." when a single sentence uses words and phrases like "arguably" and "in what could be considered" in the same sentence, then the claim becomes a bit ambiguous. if we are going to claim he is the first NHB fighter in the UK, we should have at least one more reputable source that is clear in its claim and not ambiguous in the syntax or lexicon. since we have no other sources, i am going to delete the whole sentence. i preferred 'one of the first MMA fighters in the UK' to 'the first fighter,' but since there is no source for that either, it would just be original research. and claudioproductions, your reverting without discussion and POV pushing and COI issues should be enough for you to at least engage in some discussion before you make any changes/reverts. Theserialcomma (talk) 22:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Man it was hard getting my edit through just now; got maybe four edit conflicts with you :P Anyway, how's the lead now? Added a new source and tried keeping to exactly what they said. Removed some not reliably sourced stuff and did a copyedit on the "promoter"-section as well (though it definitely needs some more work, hence the cleanup-tag). -- aktsu (t / c) 01:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * i think it looks much more encyclopedic now. thanks. Theserialcomma (talk) 02:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok. well basically were going to have a tough time finding sources then, because all the ones withLee Hasdell in are unreliable. As for kickboxing record, Hasdell only had one kickboxing fight after 1995. ClaudioProductions (talk) 16:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)==
 * sorry, but if the sources are unreliable, then they are not usable for wikipedia and therefore the information must be left out. that could be considered to be a fundamental weakness of wikipedia: something may be true, but until it's verifiable through reliable resources, it is not to be included. please see WP: RS and WP:Verifiability Theserialcomma (talk) 18:11, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

the state of this article
this article is becoming a terrible fluff piece again. can we get the article's subject son to propose his edits on the talk page before it's added to the article? there is too much unencyclopedic language creeping back in Theserialcomma (talk) 01:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, too right. Plus someones changed it so he won by big splash? :p —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.237.199.247 (talk) 14:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I am sorry for keep editing this article, i have tried to organise it best i can, i have corrected a few things. I made a few additions to the kick boxing sections also, please do read through everything and not judge it on the amount of changes their are. thanks ClaudioProductions (talk) 00:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Record
The mixed martial arts record section keeps being reverted to the sherdog one. I have referenced all of these additional fights from http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/. It is the best source for Fighting Network RINGS events. Sherdog only includes RINGS events since 1995 and are missing many between 1995-1999. Recently Lee Hasdell's record was reverted to a different record which was even missing the Ricardo Fyeet fight from sherdog??.

It was only a couple of years ago that Sherdog did not include fights with Hiromitsu Kanehara, Ryuki Ueyama and Ricardo Fyeet. Although it was always on this wikipedia page. Sherdog have since updated their page to include these fights, which proves there database is incomplete and still updating.

Plus why does Sherdog have to be the one true source for mixed martial events? MMA Universe does have different fights/events on their database, although every time i have referenced from their site, it gets reverted??. ClaudioProductions (talk) 14:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The MMA Wikiproject uses the Sherdog records as the de facto standard because it is the most reliable source for that information. You mention MMA Universe.  In my experience, MMA Universe includes exhibition and amateur fights in its records which is generally not used in Wikipedia articles or they are added as separate tables.  The cited source for the additional matches in this article (http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/) does not list any fights.  If there are other professional fights not included in Sherdog, they need to be sourced and the webpage cited doesn't not provide evidence of those fights.  I would also point out that the record table in this article does not follow the MMA record template and guidelines provided by the MMA Wikiproject.
 * ClaudioProductions, looking at this talk page and your user talk page you have been well informed of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines about reliable sources, verifiability, neutral point of view, and conflict of interest. Therefore, it shouldn't be a surprise if this article gets edits to make it conform to those policies and guidelines.  --TreyGeek (talk) 16:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

www.prowrestlinghistory.com does list the events and matches! You have to click on to the links on the page. For some reason, the rest of the web address does not show up when you go into other pages. ClaudioProductions (talk) 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The full address doesn't appear in your browser's address bar. But if you right click on the link and choose "copy location", "copy link", "copy link address", or something to that effect, you'll get the correct address.  --TreyGeek (talk) 03:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

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