Talk:Liberty

Preamble for the Metaphysical Libertarians
Metaphysical libertarians believe in free will and that individuals should be able to make their own choices without external constraints. As a result, they often view freedom and liberty as central values in their philosophy.

However, different people may have different understandings of what these terms mean. For metaphysical libertarians, freedom and liberty may be tightly linked to their belief in free will and individual autonomy. They may view any external constraints on an individual's actions or choices as an infringement on their freedom and liberty.

Therefore, to ensure that these concepts align with their philosophical beliefs, metaphysical libertarians may seek to control the meaning of the words "freedom" and "liberty." They may argue that the common usage of these terms does not accurately capture their specific philosophical views, and may therefore insist on defining these terms in a way that aligns with their beliefs.

Overall, the desire to control the meaning of these words is likely rooted in the deep-seated belief that freedom and liberty are fundamental to their worldview and that any deviations from their understanding of these concepts would be a threat to their philosophical beliefs.

Definition of liberty
I’m not sure that the first sentence correctly captures the definition of liberty:

Liberty, in politics, consists of the social, political, and economic freedoms to which all community members are entitled.[1]

I suspect that this is a definition of civil liberties, not liberty, as implied by the reference given. I think someone with more precise knowledge than I have should take a look. Please. DouglasBell (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree. For example, freedom of speech is not exactly social, political, or economic. It is the freedom to say what you choose. I'll look into what the standard sources say. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:36, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

The English Language Learner’s definition of Liberty includes speech. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberty Like, I am at liberty or am not at liberty to say. The festival of Liber became associated with free speech… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber In Silence Dogood No. 8, Benjamin Franklin republishes an abstract from the London Journal that states, “Without Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as publick Liberty, without Freedom of Speech … Whoever would overthrow the Liberty of a Nation, must begin by subduing the Freeness of Speech…” https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-01-02-0015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:500:5F31:9C79:AAF6:6273:9DE1 (talk) 00:47, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Separated Mill from Berlin in Philosophy content
Change from--John Stuart Mill (1806–1873), in his work, On Liberty, was the first to recognize the difference between liberty as the freedom to act and liberty as the absence of coercion.[12] In his book Two Concepts of Liberty, Isaiah Berlin formally framed the differences between these two perspectives as the distinction between two opposite concepts of liberty: positive liberty and negative liberty. The latter designates a negative condition in which an individual is protected from tyranny and the arbitrary exercise of authority, while the former refers to the liberty that comes from self-mastery, the freedom from inner compulsions such as weakness and fear.[13]


 * Change to--John Stuart Mill (1806–1873), in his work, On Liberty, was the first to recognize the difference between liberty as the freedom to act and liberty as the absence of coercion.[12]


 * Change to--In his book Two Concepts of Liberty, Isaiah Berlin formally framed the differences between these two perspectives as the distinction between two opposite concepts of liberty: positive liberty and negative liberty. The latter designates a negative condition in which an individual is protected from tyranny and the arbitrary exercise of authority, while the former refers to the liberty that comes from self-mastery, the freedom from inner compulsions such as weakness and fear.[13]


 * Very different attitudes--Today Mill is social political in context-cited, Berlin meta-philosophical-cited.Arnlodg (talk) 19:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Requesting wider attention
I felt article Islamic_literature is in bit of neglect so I added my note on talk page there, requesting to take note of Talk:Islamic_literature. If possible requesting copy edit support. Suggestions for suitable reference sources at Talk:Islamic_literature is also welcome.

Posting message here too for neutrality sake

Thanks and greetings

Bookku (talk) 07:59, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Somehow an editor or editors has managed to commit this article to a definition of liberty constituting "non-interference in Hobbes's Leviathan". Perhaps some explanation is needed?Delahays (talk) 16:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

174.103.119.30 edit
174.103.119.30 and I disagree on whether adding to the first sentence in the article " or a right or immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant (i.e. privilege)" is helpful. It seems to me both awkward and incorrect, but I have no desire to get involved in an edit war, so I hope others will weight in. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Liberty Bell - global perspective
I've just edited the caption on the Liberty Bell picture, which previously read "The Liberty Bell is an international icon of liberty."

This assertion was debated several times on the Liberty Bell page (Talk:Liberty_Bell/Archive_1, Talk:Liberty_Bell/Archive_1, Talk:Liberty_Bell/Archive_1) and as far as I can see no-one ever substantiated the assertion that the Liberty Bell is recognised as an icon of liberty anywhere except the United States. The Liberty Bell article finally settled in a state without the claim, and it doesn't currently seem to be substantiated either in this article or that one.

This seems to be a WP:GLOBAL issue; please don't restore this claim without strong non-US sources.

(Also, we currently head this article with two US images - there is probably a case for replacing one with something like Marianne/Liberty Leading the People, Magna Carta, or another international example; though I suppose one could argue the statue is part-French.) TSP (talk) 10:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Having looked at the history, the bell has only been in the lead since April - I've done a general rearrangement of images and moved the bell to the US section, supplanting the liberty dollar (which is a good image but there were too many US images for the amount of US content). TSP (talk) 11:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

There are (as I mention above) problems with the current edit -- awkward writing and unnecessary repetition being the biggest problems. I really don't want to get involved with an edit war, but I am going to see what I can do to make the lead readable. Rick Norwood (talk) 10:10, 3 June 2023 (UTC)