Talk:List of South African military chiefs

Gen Binda
gen. binda recently died in a car accident. maybe someone knows his successor. --Severino 21:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Gen Binda died in November 2006. He has, by March 12, 2007, not been replaced. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.54.202.246 (talk) 08:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

List
The list does not appear entirely accurate. Below is a list obtained from the SA National Museum of Military History as part of research conducted for my "Guide to the SANDF": (Aplogies for the poor spacing, I'm new at this; I'm sure someone with better skill can "panel beat" it into shape.)

Updated SANDF Chiefs list 1912-present

SA National Defence Force (1994 – present) Chief of the SANDF
 * GEN Godfrey Nhlanhla Ngwenya	June 1, 2005 – present
 * GEN Siphiwe Nyanda	*	June 1, 1998 – May 31, 2005
 * GEN Georg Lodewyk Meiring* 	November 1, 1993 – May 31, 1998

SA Defence Force (1957-1994) Chief of the SADF Commandant General of the SADF
 * GEN Georg Lodewyk Meiring* 	November 1, 1993 – April 30, 1994
 * GEN Andreas J “Kat” Liebenberg	November 1, 1990 – October 31, 1993
 * GEN Johannes J “Jannie” Geldenhuys* 	November 1, 1985 – October 31, 1990
 * GEN Constand Viljoen*		October 7, 1980 – October 30, 1985
 * GEN Magnus Andre de M Malan*	September 1, 1976 – October 6, 1980
 * ADM Hugo H Biermann		April 1, 1972 – August 31, 1976
 * GEN Rudolph C Hiemstra         January 1, 1966 – March 31, 1972
 * GEN Pieter H Grobbelaar        January 1, 1961 – December 30, 1965
 * CMDT GEN Stephen A Melville	September 25, 1958 – December 31, 1960
 * CMDT GEN Hendrik B Klopper	September 23, 1956 – September 24, 1958

Union Defence Force (1912-1957) Chief of the South African General Staff Inspector General of the Union Defence Forces Commandant General of the Active Citizen Force Table 6.6a: Previous Chiefs of the UDF, SADF and SANDF. * Alive at the time of writing, February 17, 2007.
 * LTG Christiaan L de Wet du Toit	March 16, 1950 - 	September 22, 1956
 * LTG Leonard Beyers			May 2, 1949 – March 15, 1950
 * LTG Sir HA “Pierre” van Ryneveld	May 2, 1933 – May 1, 1949
 * MG Andries JE Brink			October 1, 1922 – May 1, 1933
 * BG JJ Collyer 			October 14, 1914 – September 20, 1922
 * BG Sir HT “Tim” Lukin		July 1, 1912 – October 13, 1914
 * BG Christiaan F Beyers		July 1, 1912 – October 13, 1914

SA National Defence Force (1994 – present) Chief of the SA Army
 * LTG Solly Zacharia Shoke 			June 1, 2004 – present
 * LTG Gilbert Lebeko Ramano*				- May 31, 2004
 * LTG Reginald Otto*				January 1, 1995 –
 * LTG Hattingh J Pretorius* 			November 1, 1993 – December 31, 1994

SA Defence Force (1957-1994) Chief of the SA Army SA Army Chief of Staff
 * LTG Georg Lodewyk Meiring*			 March 1, 1990 – October 31, 1993
 * LTG Andreas J “Kat” Liebenberg		November 1, 1985 - February 28, 1990
 * LTG Johannes J “Jannie” Geldenhuys*		October 7, 1980 – October 30, 1985
 * LTG Constand L Viljoen*			September 1, 1976 – October 6, 1980
 * LTG Magnus Andre de M Malan*		July 1, 1973 – August 31, 1976
 * LTG Willem P Louw 				December 1, 1967 – June 30, 1973
 * LTG Charles A “Pop” Fraser			October 1, 1966 – November 30, 1967
 * Combat General  Petrus J Jacobs		March 4, 1963 – December 31, 1965
 * Combat General Sybrand A Engelbrecht	November 1, 1959 – March 3, 1963
 * Brig J Nicolaas “Nick” Bierman		September 25, 1958 – October 31, 1959

Union Defence Force (1912-1957) SA Army Chief of Staff Director General SA Land Forces Director General Training and Operations Deputy Chief of the SA General Staff Deputy Chief of Staff and Director General Operations and Training Deputy Chief of the SA General Staff Director Military Procedures and Planning Table 9.5: Previous Chiefs of the SA Army
 * Brig Pieter H Grobbelaar			May 1, 1953 – September 24, 1958
 * Brig Hendrik B Klopper			March 16, 1950 – April 30, 1953
 * Brig Christiaan L de W du Toit			November 10, 1948 – March 15, 1950
 * Brig P de Waal				August 9, 1948 – November 9, 1948
 * MG WH Evered Poole			March 2, 1946 – August 8, 1948
 * COL HS Cilliers				August 1, 1945 – March 1, 1946
 * Brig HS Wakefield				February 9, 1944 – July 31, 1945
 * Brig P de Waal				September 1, 1940 – February 8, 1944
 * BG George E Brink				September 11, 1939 – August 30, 1940
 * COL P de Waal				May 1, 1934 – September 10, 1939
 * LTC FH Theron				May 1, 1933 – April 30, 1934

SA National Defence Force (1994 – present) Chief of the Air Force
 * LTG Carlo Gagiano 					March 1, 2005 – present
 * LTG Roelf J Beukes* 					March 1, 2000 – February 28, 2005
 * LTG Willem Hendrik Hechter*			May 1, 1996 – February 29, 2000
 * LTG James Kriel*					April 27, 1994 – April 30, 1996

SA Defence Force (1957-1994) Chief of the Air Force SAAF Chief of Staff
 * LTG James Kriel*					November 1, 1991 – April 26, 1994
 * LTG Jan PB van Loggerenberg*			July 1, 1988 – October 31, 1991
 * LTG Dennis J Earp 					March 1, 1984 – June 30, 1988
 * LTG A Michal Muller					December 1, 1979 – February 29, 1984
 * LTG Robert HD “Bob” Rogers 			March 1, 1975 – November 30, 1979
 * LTG Jacobus P Verster				December, 1967 – February 28, 1975
 * LTG Henry J “Kalfie” Martin				May 1, 1965 – November 30, 1967
 * Combat General Barend G Viljoen			September 23, 1956 – April 30, 1965

Union Defence Force (1912-1957) Director General of the SAAF Director Air Service and Technical Services Director Air Service Table 10.7: Previous Chiefs of the SAAF
 * BRIG Stephen A Melville				August 25, 1954 – September 22, 1956
 * BRIG Harold G Willmott				July 1, 1951 – August 24, 1954
 * BRIG James T Durrant				October 1, 1946 – June 30, 1951
 * BRIG Harold G Willmott				October 17, 1945 – September 10, 1946
 * MG Christoffel J Venter				October 1, 1940 – October 16, 1945
 * COL John Holthouse					September 13, 1939 – Sept. 30, 1940
 * LTC Hector C Daniel					September 13, 1936 – Sept. 12, 1939
 * COL John Holthouse					May 1, 1933 – September 12, 1936
 * COL Sir Helperus Andreas “Pierre” van Ryneveld 	February 1, 1920 – April 30, 1933

SA Navy, SA National Defence Force (1994 – present) Chief of the SA Navy
 * V Adm Refiloe Johannes Mudimu 		March 1, 2005 – present
 * V Adm Johan Frans Retief*			November 1, 2000 - February 28, 2005
 * V Adm Robert Claude Simpson-Anderson*	April 27, 1994 – October 31, 2000

SA Navy, SA Defence Force (1957-1994) SA Navy Chief of Staff
 * V Adm Robert Claude Simpson-Anderson*	September 1, 1992 – April 26, 1994
 * V Adm Lambert J “Woody” Woodburne*	July 1, 1990 – August 31, 1992
 * V Adm Glen Syndercombe			July 1, 1985 – March 31, 1989
 * V Adm Andries P “Dries” Putter		October 1, 1982 – June 30, 1990 (two terms)
 * V Adm Ronald A Edwards			February 1, 1980 – September 30, 1982
 * V Adm J Charl Walters			October 1, 1977 – January 30, 1980
 * V Adm James “Johnny” Johnson		April 1, 1972 – September 30, 1977
 * V Adm Hugo H Biermann			July 1, 1966 – March 31, 1972
 * R Adm Hugo H Biermann                                   May 1, 1955 – June 30, 1966

SA Naval Service & Seaward Defence Force, Union Defence Force (1912-1957) SA Navy and Marine Chief of Staff Director SA Naval Force Director Seaward Defence Force Director SA Naval Services Table 11.6: Previous Chiefs of the Navy
 * Cmdre Hugo H Biermann                                     December 1, 1952 – April 30, 1955
 * Brigadier Pieter de Waal 			July 1, 1951 – November 30, 1952
 * Commodore Frederick J Deane			December 1, 1946 – June 30, 1951
 * Commodore James Dalgleish			March 21, 1941 – November 30, 1946
 * R Adm Guy W Hallifax			September 16, 1939 – March 28, 1941
 * vacant
 * Commander RFUP Fitzgerald 			June 4, 1928 – November 4, 1932
 * Commander Norman H Rankin			April 1, 1922 – June 3, 1928

SA National Defence Force (1994 – present)
 * LTG Vejaynand Indurjith Ramlakan 			2005-
 * LTG Jurinus Janse van Rensburg*			2000-2005
 * LTG Davidson Masuku*				1997-2000
 * LTG Daniel P “Neil” Knobel*				1994-1997

SA Defence Force (1957-1994) Table 12.5: Previous Surgeons General
 * LTG Daniel P “Neil” Knobel*				1988-1994
 * LTG JN Nieuwoudt					1977-1988
 * LTG Colin Cockcroft					1969-1977
 * MG Eugene Raymond 				1960-1969

LTG Sipho Z Binda	June 1, 2005 to November 14, 2006 LTG Godfrey Ngwenya	January 1, 2001 to May 31, 2005 LTG Deon Fereira 	August 1, 1997 to December 31, 2000

Table 7.3: The Roll of Chiefs of Joint Operations

Can we be more specific?
Would you care to highlight the discrepancies so that we can try and clear them up? At a glance through the lists which you got from the SANMMH, I find a few inaccuracies there too, e.g.
 * Brig Gen Lukin's title was Inspector-General of the Permanent Force, not of the UDF and he held the post until 1915;
 * Col De Waal's was Director of Military Operations & Training, not "Procedures and Training";
 * Gen Hiemstra succeeded Gen Grobbelaar in October 1965, not January 1966;
 * Sir Pierre v Ryneveld was promoted to full General in 1945 for his leadership in WW2.

I'd query listing Lukin and Beyers and Collyer among former Chiefs of the SADF because Lukin and Beyers controlled only army units and IMHO would be predecessors of C Army; and Collyer controlled only Defence HQ - it wasn't until 1922 that the CGS was given command over the whole defence force.

Dirk L 18:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Table vs List
I have put a table into CNavy - what do you feel about doing it this way rather than the current list format? If everyone is happy I will start converting - and incorporate the dates listed in a previous post above Gbawden (talk) 12:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposed page layout change
I would like to propose a change to the layout of this page. Currently there are 2 columns

I propose redesigning as follows: Single colum, laid out as follows
 * SANDF
 * -CSANDF


 * SADF
 * -CSADF


 * Service Heads
 * - CSAAF
 * - CArmy
 * - CMHS
 * - CNavy

- CJops

In addition, I would put the lists into tables, with full dates as proposed in a discussion above

Your thoughts? - have a look at my sandbox for an idea of what it will look like Gbawden (talk) 17:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC) : Would also like your input on how we deal with the changes in titles over the years Gbawden (talk) 07:07, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Separation of Chiefs of the UDF and SADF
Why is it important to split the list of chiefs 1922-94 into two lists because the UDF changed its name to SADF in 1958? It was simply a change of name, not the creation of a new organisation. It was not like 1994, when the SADF was amalgamated with six other organisations to form a new organisation.

I think the different titles 'Chief of the General Staff', 'Commandant General', and 'Chief of the SADF' should be put back into the introductory para. There was no such title as 'Chief of the UDF', so the section heading is misleading.

If the chiefs of the UDF/SADF are to be split because of changes of service name then, logically, the chiefs of the services should also be split at every point that the service's name was changed, e.g. from 'land forces' to 'army', or from 'seaward defence force' to 'SA naval forces'. It seems unnecessary.

Dirk L (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

SGT major of the Army, Air Force, etc
Should we consider compiling a list of the SGTs major of the Army or should we limit this page to Chiefs as it is now? Gbawden (talk) 09:29, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the sergeants-major are really "military chiefs". They're senior warrant officers. If we were to include them, then we'd have to list the quartermaster-general, the inspector-general etc, because their departments also had sergeants-major. If we were to list the QMG and IG, then how could we leave out the chiefs of personnel, intelligence, operations, etc? I'd leave the scope of the page as it is - if there's a need for a listing of the sgts major, they could have a separate page. Dirk L (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:56, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, that would be stretching the scope of this article too far. Roger (talk) 12:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Chaplain General

 * It's just my opinion, but I consider the Chaplain General post to be part of the Chiefs.. BoonDock (talk) 13:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Possibly but then at some point this page is going to have everyone on it. I would limit the Chiefs to being anyone of the ones as determined by the Constitution. Gbawden (talk) 13:58, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Point. What is bugging me is all the succession boxes on the various pages. This info should be maintained in some central place. I was thinking that a template which had all the various posts with their incumbents and dates etc available, then it could pull that info into succession boxes on the individual's pages. Also, could be used to generate lists of OCs etc. Not sure how to accomplish something like that. I need to do some research. BoonDock (talk) 14:09, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Gbawden. I cannot recall the exact composition of the Defence Command Council, but the Army, SAAF, Navy and Medical Command Councils were constituted of the equivalent Arms of Service Chiefs, ie (for the SAAF) CAF, CAFS, IGAF, CAS Ops, CAS Int, CAS Log, CAS Pers, CAS Fin, CAS Plan and SMAF. (I was secretary of the SAAF Comand Council in the Van Loggerenberg years.) The SAAF Chaplain was not part of the Council, but the Sergeant Major of the Air Force was, so the Sergeant Majors should really be included. -- André Kritzinger (talk) 14:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Not arguing the merits, just feeling out the rationale. If it's not appropriate here, then possibly another article with lists of the various posts and their incumbents? BoonDock (talk) 14:48, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That wasn't clear. What I meant was that this article is essentially a list of a limited number of posts and their incumbents over time. There are many other posts which also have lists of incumbents. It occurs to me that if not appropriate here, there should be another place where it is... BoonDock (talk) 14:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:07, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * VADM Retief painting SA Naval Museum.jpg (discussion)
 * VADM Simpson-Anderson painting SA Naval Museum.jpg (discussion)
 * VADM Syndecombe painting SA Naval Museum.jpg (discussion)

Military Background

 * WHAT IS VERY FUNNY HERE.NO FORMER APLA WITH MILITARY BACKGROUND, ONLY CHARTERISTS ANC, WHITE MINORITY SETTLER SADF AND BANTUSTAN TRANSKEI DEFENCE FORCE BIOGRAPHIES..WOW
 * If you have information which you believe should be added to Wikipedia, you are of course encouraged to add it, as long as it meets the various criteria of notability, neutrality, citations et al. As it happens, the onus is on users of Wikipedia to add information, and it would appear that thus far none has been interested enough to add the information that you suggest. I, for one, would be happy to see what you can contribute BoonDock (talk) 13:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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