Talk:List of grand masters of the Knights Templar

Removing Pseudo-Grand Masters
I have removed all of the Grand Masters after 1314, when the order was disolved by papal bull. Scholars are in agreement that no Templar Master sucession existed after Jaques De Molay was executed. Anyone claiming decent should either prove thier sorce from documention starting from 1314 onward. Such documentation would not exist since the Templar central repository was destroyed by fire anyway. Sorry

Merge proposal
I was unaware of this page until today, though I see it links to an article in another language Wikipedia. I recommend that it be moved to Grand Masters of the Knights Templar, incorporate the more up-to-date information that is at the main article of Knights Templar, and have a link from the main article. Elonka 04:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. --Loremaster 23:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Page is moved. :) Elonka 08:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

History please no Dungeons and Dragons or Nintendo
Someone keeps putting a bogus non-historical Grand Master on this page I removed it.

09:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)09:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)09:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It might also be worth moving to an article such as Knights Templar and popular culture, which is where most of the other fictional listings are going. --Elonka 21:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It should be merged
This is a sort of "List" thing, with no actual information but a list of names with links on them. I think it would be appropiate to merge it with List of Knights Templar. If, and only if, this page will contain a brief summery of each GM's life and role in the order, it can stand on its own, even then it will "walk on thin ice". I'm in favor of the merge for that reason - shortness. XonoX 01:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm against the merge. Though I agree that this article is not a particularly comprehensive page, the list is used for the boxes at the bottom of the biographies (where it says 'Previous Grand Master', 'Next Grand Master'). Standard Wikipedia handling of those is that the title should link to a page that has a separate list of all of the titleholders, and that is the purpose that this page serves.  --Elonka 08:30, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Graphics
The French article has images of the coats of arms of each of the Grand Masters. We should probably incorporate those here, if anyone would like to take on the project? --Elonka 06:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Those seem a little odd. The earlier Grand Masters wouldn't have had personal coats of arms anyway. And those coats of arms seem to be simply the Templar cross combined with the symbol of whatever region they happened to be from. Adam Bishop 07:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * agree... These are woefully wrong - see my note below.

KT Grand Masters coats of arms
The Grand Masters of the Knights Templars most certainly did have coats of arms, as many were genuine knights before even being admitted into the Order - it was a requirement before being admitted as a class of knight. Suggest you read up on the three classes of Order membership that existsed in the medieval order.

There is also some confusion here as to what is a coat of arms and what is a shield, as there are distinct differences. A coat of arms was awarded to a individual - there is no such thing in heraldry as a 'family coat of arms' - and usually included the shield, helm, crest, mantling, motto and supporters (if enobled to a high enough rank).

The shield is what's shown on the French entry only, it is not the crest which was the very distinguishing feature as the shield usually carried on many features from the last generation, unless quartered, combined or flagged.

The Templar Grand Masters did sometimes incorporate Templar devices into their arms, as some were lower ranks and then knighted for their exploits in the Crusades - they could then choose their arms design.

Having said that, the official records do not agree with all the entries on the French entry as they appear to have been pulled from an 'alternative' website about the Templars where much non-proven content has been included.

Lord Knowle 09:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello,
 * I'm Messire Hephgé and I take part in the project: Knight Templars on the french wikipedia.
 * After many research, it appeared that the KT Grand Masters had coat of arms.
 * More ever, it's me which drew the coats of arms but I had made a mistake. The blazons weren't composed of the cross pattee with the Grand Masters arms.
 * I'ma very sorry but my english is very bad.
 * Messire Hephgé


 * the shields (they are not coats of arms in the heraldry sense as there is a fundamental difference) are, as Messire_Hephg has admitted, woefully wrong for the knights listed. Templars did not have quartered shields, but took the field pattern from their house arms. House arms would not have been altered with quartered cross pattees as arms were then awarded in their own right to the knight -usually the crest being the differentiator. A common known fact about heraldry is that quartering was used to combine two house arms, and remember that Templars were unmarried and took a vow of celibacy! I suggest these are updated with the correct graphics. Although the College d'armes was dissolved after the French Revolution, their historical records of the Templars do exist. The College of Arms also have accurate records of the arms of the English grand masters.

Richard de Bures
I consistently find sources on the Templars showing that de Bures was never Grand Master. Conversly, i struggle to find many sources which vouch for him. Can anybody offer discussion on this? Thanks, --Tefalstar (talk) 21:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)