Talk:List of video games considered the best/Archive 9

Archive 5

←

Archive 7

Archive 8

Archive 9

Archive 10

Archive 11

Sydney Morning Herald, 2002

Here’s one more. The Sydney Morning Herald published a “Top 50 video games of all time” list in its 6 June 2002 edition, as part of its monthly e)mag supplement magazine, which featured news and columns about tech, internet, gaming, etc. The list’s preface reads, in its entirety, "Yes, here it is, and sure to start as many arguments as it settles: our 50 best electronic games ever. Really." Its author is David Hollingworth, who has been an editor for Hyper and PC Powerplay, among other RS publications, per this interview. The list can be viewed online here, though this version seems to have lost its preface at some point; this conversation indicates it’s supposed to be there. Anyway, the list meets all criteria: reliable source, editor-chosen, clearly about the best games, and no platform/genre/era restrictions. I therefore see no reason to exclude it, and will incorporate it shortly, if there are no objections. Here’s a transcription:

Sydney Morning Herald, 2002

1. Doom (1993) 2. Half-Life 3. Sid Meier’s Civilization 4. Quake / Quake II (dual entry) 5. Diablo 6. Space Invaders 7. Final Fantasy VII 8. Starcraft 9. Ultima (series) 10. Tomb Raider (1996) 11. Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness 12. Myst 13. Duke Nukem 3D 14. Pong 15. Everquest 16. Tetris 17. The Bard’s Tale 18. Deus Ex 19. Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings 20. Halo 21. Super Mario 64 22. Wipeout 2097 23. The Curse of Monkey Island 24. System Shock 25. Zork 26. Star Control II 27. Counter-Strike 28. Elite 29. Wing Commander 30. Street Fighter II 31. Command & Conquer 32. Metal Gear Solid 33. Simcity (1989) 34. Star Wars: X-Wing 35. X-COM: UFO Defense 36. Baldur’s Gate 37. Goldeneye (1997) 38. Star Wars: Dark Forces 39. Falcon 3.0 40. Thief: The Dark Project 41. Unreal 42. Donkey Kong (Game & Watch) 43. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 44. Marathon 45. Medal of Honor 46. Super Metroid 47. Gran Turismo 48. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 3 49. Pac-Man 50. Lemmings

Once this is incorporated, Wing Commander and Star Control II will be added to the main list. Phediuk (talk) 08:06, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. I have also added the Herald's list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 20:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Visualised document has been updated also. BenSPVE (talk) 00:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

The Independent, 1999

Just when I thought we'd got 'em all, I came across one more. The Independent published a list of “The 50 Best Video games” in 1999, concerning "the best that the video world has to offer." The list was chosen in collaboration with solicited industry experts, whom it lists in the preamble; they are all either games journalists or developers. The list meets all other criteria, too: reliable source, clearly about best games, no platform/genre/era restrictions. So, if there are no objections, I’ll add it.

The Independent, 1999

1. Half-Life 2. Street Fighter II 3. Super Mario Kart 4. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 5. Total Annihilation 6. Time Crisis 7. Tekken 3 8. Gran Turismo 9. Tomb Raider (1996) 10. Final Fantasy VII 11. Goldeneye (1997) 12. Virtua Fighter 13. Wipeout 2097 14. Super Mario 64 15. Civilization II 16. Quake 17. Final Fight 18. International Superstar Soccer ‘98 19. Metal Gear Solid 20. Command & Conquer (series) 21. Virtua Cop 22. Soul Blade 23. Sensible Soccer 24. Worms 25. Battlezone (1998) 26. Turok 2: Seeds of Evil 27. Streets of Rage 28. Kick-Off 2 29. Sonic the Hedgehog 30. Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines 31. Doom (1993) 32. Mortal Kombat (1992) 33. Colin McRae Rally 34. Crash Bandicoot: Warped 35. Theme Park 36. Unreal 37. Marvel Super Heroes 38. 1080 Snowboarding 39. Croc: Legend of the Gobbos 40. Grand Theft Auto 41. Point Blank 42. Dead or Alive 43. FIFA ‘99 44. Nights into Dreams 45. The Secret of Monkey Island 46. Panzer Dragoon Zwei 47. Pocket Fighter 48. Wave Race 64 49. Oddworld: Abe’s Exoddus 50. Age of Empires

Final Fight and Age of Empires will be added to the main list. Phediuk (talk) 21:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. I have also added the Independent list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 04:40, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Visualised document was also updated. Hopefully we keep finding the old ones! BenSPVE (talk) 23:48, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Gameswelt, 2012 and 2016

Here's something that looks good. German game news and review site Gameswelt has done two Top 100 "besten Spiele aller Zeiten" lists, one in 2012, and one in 2016. I opened a discussion on the site’s reliability over at the WP:VG/S talk page a few days ago. No one has yet raised any objections. The site has hundreds of citations on WP, including a decent amount even on the English WP. It has been around since 1999, and demonstrably has editorial oversight, as well as a large, paid staff. I don't see any reason this wouldn't pass the RS criteria, considering it seems de facto accepted as a RS already. Both lists meet the other criteria, too: staff-chosen, clearly about best games, and no platform/era/genre restrictions. I'll wait for a bit and see if anyone has any objections here, and, if not, will incorporate the lists.

Gameswelt, 2012

1. Grand Theft Auto IV and Vice City (dual entry) 2. Red Dead Redemption 3. Monkey Island 1 and 2 (dual entry) 4. Half-Life 1 and 2 (dual entry) 5. Deus Ex 6. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past / Ocarina of Time (dual entry) 7. Metal Gear Solid 8. Resident Evil 1 and 4 (dual entry) 9. Mario Kart 64 10. Maniac Mansion and Day of the Tentacle (dual entry) 11. Super Mario 64 and World (dual entry) 12. God of War 1 and 2 (dual entry) 13. Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2 (dual entry) 14. Civilization 15. Max Payne 16. Batman: Arkham City 17. Assassin’s Creed II and Brotherhood (dual entry) 18. Final Fantasy VII 19. Tomb Raider (1996) 20. Sid Meier’s Pirates! (1987) 21. Shadow of the Colossus 22. Portal 1 and 2 (dual entry) 23. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 24. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade / Fate of Atlantis (dual entry) 25. Diablo II 26. Dead Space 27. Fallout (series) 28. Super Castlevania IV 29. Battlefield 1942 30. Mass Effect (series) 31. Counter-Strike 32. Command & Conquer 33. Goldeneye (1997) 34. World of Warcraft 35. Conker’s Bad Fur Day 36. Heavy Rain 37. Halo: Combat Evolved 38. System Shock 2 39. Age of Empires 40. Super Metroid 41. Donkey Kong 42. Starcraft 43. Pro Evolution Soccer 6 44. Activision Decathlon 45. Doom (1993) 46. Unreal Tournament 47. Micro Machines 48. Alone in the Dark (1992) 49. Tetris 50. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind and V: Skyrim (dual entry) 51. Pokemon Red and Blue 52. FIFA Soccer (1993) 53. Simcity and Simcity 2000 (dual entry) 54. Medal of Honor / Allied Assault (dual entry) 55. Burnout 3: Takedown 56. Shenmue 57. The Settlers 58. Hitman: Codename 47 59. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 1 and 2 (dual entry) 60. Forza Motorsport 3 61. Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos 62. Duke Nukem 3D 63. Thief: The Dark Project 64. Silent Hill 2 65. Sensible Soccer 66. Jagged Alliance 2 67. Heroes of Might & Magic 2 and 3 (dual entry) 68. Street Fighter II 69. Turrican 1 and 2 (dual entry) 70. Wave Race 64 71. Winter Challenge 72. Defender of the Crown 73. Gradius 74. NBA 2K12 75. Wipeout 76. Battle Isle 77. NHL 12 78. The Bard’s Tale 79. Rayman 80. NBA Jam 81. Star Fox 82. Anno 1602 83. F-Zero 84. Limbo 85. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 86. Kirby’s Dream Land 87. Flashback 88. Pac-Man 89. Guitar Hero 90. Ico 91. The Sims 92. Pitfall 93. Plants vs. Zombies 94. Sonic the Hedgehog 95. Pong 96. Bejeweled 97. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 98. Secret of Mana 99. Streets of Rage 100. Archon: The Light and the Dark

Gameswelt, 2016

1. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 2. Shadow of the Colossus 3. Monkey Island II: LeChuck’s Revenge 4. Super Mario World 5. Red Dead Redemption 6. Bloodborne 7. Diablo II 8. Half-Life 9. Final Fantasy VI 10. World of Warcraft 11. Grand Theft Auto V 12. Xenoblade Chronicles 13. Okami 14. Secret of Mana 15. Dark Souls 3 16. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 17. Mass Effect 2 18. The Secret of Monkey Island 19. Half-Life 2 20. Goldeneye (1997) 21. Super Mario 64 22. Day of the Tentacle 23. The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask 24. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 25. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 26. Diablo III 27. Metal Gear Solid 28. Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire 29. Portal 2 30. Deus Ex 31. XCOM: Enemy Unknown 32. The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth 33. No One Lives Forever 2 34. Mega Man X 35. Mario Kart 64 36. Batman: Arkham Knight 37. Bioshock 38. Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis 39. To the Moon 40. Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos 41. Medal of Honor: Allied Assault 42. Shovel Knight 43. Super Mario Kart 44. Dead Space 2 45. Jagged Alliance 2 46. Rocket League 47. Counter-Strike 48. Dead Space 49. Baten Kaitos 50. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind 51. Metroid Prime 52. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 53. God of War II 54. Secret of Evermore 55. Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders 56. Gears of War 2 57. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive 58. Final Fantasy VIII 59. Gears of War 3 60. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 61. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 62. The Walking Dead: Season 1 63. Super Castlevania IV 64. Max Payne 65. Undertale 66. Borderlands 2 67. Tomb Raider (1996) 68. Final Fantasy VII 69. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 70. Gears of War 71. Metroid Prime 2: Echoes 72. Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate 73. The Last of Us 74. Batman: Arkham City 75. Battlefield 1942 76. Planescape: Torment 77. Quake III: Arena 78. Resident Evil 4 79. Rise of the Tomb Raider 80. Grand Theft Auto IV 81. Child of Light 82. Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End 83. Fallout 2 84. Contra III: The Alien Wars 85. F.E.A.R. 86. Baldur’s Gate 87. Assassin’s Creed Brotherhood 88. Kingdom Hearts II 89. Sid Meier’s Pirates! (1987) 90. Fallout 3 91. Chrono Trigger 92. Civilization V 93. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption 94. Pokemon Red and Blue 95. Super Meat Boy 96. Dragon Age: Origins 97. South Park: The Stick of Truth 98. Tomb Raider 3 99. Super Metroid 100. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time

Assuming these lists pass muster, additions will be as follows: Sid Meier's Pirates!, Super Castlevania IV, Micro Machines, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Sensible Soccer, Alone in the Dark, Mega Man X. Plants vs. Zombies, and Shovel Knight. Phediuk (talk) 08:08, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Nice find, more foreign language lists are always a good thing. I vote yes. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Same here, and not just because of my PVZ bias. SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I've replied to WP:VG/S, as I think "duh" sources sometimes don't draw much attention. I'm a big proponent of more non-english sources being vetted. -- ferret (talk) 23:03, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

This list looks fine to me. SnowFire (talk) 00:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

As all comments both here and at the WP:VG/S talk page were in favor of Gameswelt, I went ahead and incorporated the two lists. I have also added the lists to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 07:16, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

@Phediuk just a quick correction, though it doesn't really add anything to the list itself: #9 on the 2016 list is supposed to be Final Fantasy VI, as VII is currently repeated twice. BenSPVE (talk) 17:24, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Visualised document has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 17:41, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Whoops, corrected that typo; still cited to the right game on the main page, though. Phediuk (talk) 18:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Ah gotcha, thank you. I was more so talking about the typo on the omnibus document, apologies for not clarifying that. BenSPVE (talk) 18:28, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Why Six Sources?

Why is the requirement at least six sources? 2605:A601:AE93:F400:BD21:E86F:4B4B:4F43 (talk) 16:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Because we had a discussion that led to a consensus to use six sources. That was rediscussed in the past few months and remains in place. -- ferret (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Is NerdCubed's Top 100 Games a reliable list/source that can be added?

So NerdCubed, aka Daniel Hardcastle, is a well-known and popular gamer who, asides from his Youtube Channel, is both the head of a company that has made a few games, and focuses a lot on gaming reviews as well as gameplay.

Because the channel/group/company seems to not be that different from the already-accepted Electric Playground Network, I simply ask that NerdCube's Top 100 Video Games of All Time list be accepted as the newest publication (the wiki list provides links to every section of the youtube list, with each playlist having 10 of the games on the list).

NerdCubed, 2016

100 - Evil Genius 99 - World of Goo 98 - Super Monkey Ball Deluxe 97 - Pokemon Red / Blue and possibly Yellow 96 - Fuel 95 - Armadillo Run 94 - DMC: Devil May Cry 93 - Burnout: Paradise 92 - Star Trek: Voyager Elite Force 91 - PixelJunk Shooter Ultimate 90 - Thomas Was Alone 89 - Resident Evil 4 88 - Gunpoint 87 - Far Cry 3 86 - Just Cause 2 85 - Broforce 84 - Spelunky 83 - Euro Truck Simulator 2 82 - Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri 81 - Beyond Good & Evil 80 - Batman: Arkham Asylum 79 - Star Wars: Battlefront II (PC Version ONLY) 78 - Tomb Raider 3 77 - N++ 76 - ReVolt 75 - Driver 74 - Far Cry 2 73 - Soulcalibur 2 72 - Grow Home 71 - Scott Pilgrim 70 - Age of Empires II 69- Plants vs Zombies 68 - Terraria 67 - Stacking 66 - Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 65 - Hitman: Blood Money 64 - WWE 2k16 63 - Animal Crossing: New Leaf 62 - Dishonored 61 - Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear 60 - Ratchet & Clank 3 59 - Rocket League 58 - Wario Land 3 57 - Left 4 Dead 2 56 - Black 55 - Spore 54 - Liero 53 - Tearaway (PS Vita Version) 52 - Metroid: Zero Mission 51 - Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 50 - Prince of Persia: Warrior Within 49 - Psychonauts 48 - The World Ends with You 47 - Sonic the Hedgehog 3 46 - Cities: Skylines 45 - Antichamber 44 - Theme Hospital (Rebecca's #1) 43 - Metal Gear Solid 3 42 - Devil May Cry 41 - Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 40 - Just Cause 3 39 - The Stanley Parable 38 - TimeSplitters: Future Perfect 37 - Crush 36 - Elite Beat Agents 35 - Job Simulator 34 - Worms: Armageddon 33 - LittleBigPlanet 2 32 - Kerbal Space Program 31 - Minecraft 30 - Spec Ops: The Line 29 - The Legends of Zelda: Link's Awakening 28 - Red Faction: Guerilla 27 - Fable III 26 - Yu-Gi-Oh! Tag Force 5 25 - Burnout 3: Takedown 24 - Sins of a Solar Empire 23 - Spider-Man 2 (not the PC Version) 22 - Prison Architect 21 - Mirror's Edge 20 - Red Dead Redemption 19 - Papers, Please 18 - Metal Gear Solid 2 17 - Bastion 16 - Saints Row 2 15 - The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 14 - Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas 13 - The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth 12 - Fallout 4 11 - FTL: Faster than Light 10 - The Sims 9 - Grand Theft Auto V 8 - RollerCoaster Tycoon 2 7 - Dungeon Keeper 6 - SSX 3 5 - Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 4 - RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 3 - Portal 2 - Shadow of the Colossus 1 - Bully

If this is accepted, then the following games will get their 6th required listing and thus have enough listings to be put on the page:

1. Paper's Please (2013)

2. Plants vs. Zombies (2009)

The following games with currently 4 entries that (if this is accepted) will be bumped up to 5 entries (and thus should bare watching) are:

1. Worms: Armageddon

2. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3

3. The Stanley Parable

4. SSX3

5. Far Cry 2

6. Elite: Beat Agents

I once tried to put in NerdCubed as a reference before since I wasn't aware it needed talk page approval at the time (for which I apolgize), but if Electric Playground Network can get approved, then to me NerdCubed is just as reliable a gaming list source.

Eseseso (talk) 19:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Eseseso

What makes NerdCubed/Daniel Hardcastle a reliable secondary source by Wikipedia's standards? Sounds self-published? -- ferret (talk) 19:57, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It seems to follow Wikipedia's rules:

The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim.

It does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities).

It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject.

There is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity.

The Wikipedia article is not based primarily on such sources.

Looking over the list (both the wiki one and the videos of the list), it seems to follow all 5 of these. Eseseso (talk) 20:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

We're looking more for a history of fact checking, editorial control, staff credentials and the like. Why should we care that Daniel Hardcastle, one person, ranked these games? Why not my top 100? -- ferret (talk) 20:36, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I simply figure that since he is the head of a gaming company and a renowned gamer/game reviewer, he'd be a reliable source.

I mean, he's not that different from Electric Playground Network. Eseseso (talk) 21:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Just did a quick check; Nerdcubed has almost no other citations anywhere else on Wikipedia, making its reliability questionable. It should at least be presented to the VG Wikiproject source talk page first. Phediuk (talk) 23:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Shacknews' "Hall of Fame" and Strong National Museum of Play's "World Video Game Hall of Fame"

Would the hall of fame lists by Shacknews and Strong National Museum of Play count as reliable sources for the article? Both essentially serve the same function as a regular "greatest games of all time" lists and are decided by a group of editors rather than voters, and Shacknews is listed on Wikipedia:VG/RS as a reliable source.

https://www.shacknews.com/article/128105/shacknews-hall-of-fame?page=5#detail-view

https://www.museumofplay.org/exhibits/world-video-game-hall-of-fame/inducted-games/

--Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 23:07, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Shacknews is no good. They are limiting to a timeframe, all entries must be 25+ years old. -- ferret (talk) 00:30, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

But we accepted GamingBolt's 2022 list, and the oldest entry on that ranking is Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec, which came out in 2001. Although the title stated it is an "all time" listing, the exact words in the descriptor were "The past several years have been filled with amazing games. However, some clearly stand above the rest - check out the creme of the crop here." "The past several years" don't quite match up with the exact definition of "all time" and implies that they deliberately ignored anything that came out before the year 2000. If nothing else, Shacknews' hall of fame listing provides a nice counterbalance to such a list that is preoccupied with more recent titles, and more importantly, neither exclude titles by platform. Haleth (talk) 06:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

2001 is not within "the past several years", though, and nothing else about the list implies that it is limited to a specific time frame; that subheading seems to refer to the site's last list, several years earlier. Even if you were right, though, that would be an argument to remove the list, not include another one.

That being said, should the Shacknews list not be treated equally to a list from 1996? It's still "of all time", just up to a certain point (as if every other list, technically). – Rhain ☔ 10:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with your analogy of a 1996 list, and you more or less made the point I was trying to convey. All lists do in fact face the time limitation of being up to a certain point ,which is typically within contemporary limits. I don't think a inclusion criteria that a game needs to be more then 25 years old would disqualify them from being considered as an eligible source for the purpose of this article, because it isn't deliberately excluding a specific time frame. In this case, Shacknews' hall of fame seem to take the long view and deliberately sets an inclusion criteria for themselves that directly opposes recentism and emphasizes whether the subject stands the test of time, which does sound like the same goals that Wikipedia is meant to follow. Haleth (talk) 13:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

My problem is that Slacknews is deliberately excluding any game from the last 25 years. The criteria clearly states that a list should not be deliberately time frame limited. An old list is just an old list, it didn't deliberate cut anything off. In this case Slacknews is. That's just what's in the criteria as it stands though, I'm open to changing it? -- ferret (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Also, the Museum of Play's preamble says it's about games that have "enjoyed popularity over a sustained period and have exerted influence on the video game industry or on popular culture and society in general" -- neither it nor any of the entries on the list claim to be about the best or greatest games. So, I'm going to say no to that one too. Thanks for the suggestions, though. Phediuk (talk) 01:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Just a note to add to the discussion above; thank you to everyone for the input. First, Haleth is correct that the Shacknews list does not set any limitation on time frame, so that isn't a reason, on its own, to exclude it. However, there's still an issue with the Shacknews list, namely that it's framed only as "the games that have shaped the industry and the lives of millions of players." The list itself is never identified specifically with best or greatest games anywhere. It describes only a few of its entries as the best or greatest of anything, and the only game it describes as such without further qualifications (such as best-in-genre or best-of-era or what have you) is Pac-Man. So, I'm still going to vote no on this one. Phediuk (talk) 14:12, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

It absolutely does. It states that all entries must have had a connection "to the industry" for 25 years, and nothing newer than that appears in it. -- ferret (talk) 15:22, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh wait, you're totally right. It doesn't say that on the game list, but the table of contents for all the Shacknews halls of fame clearly excludes anything under 25 years old. I didn't realize the criteria were on another page; my bad. Phediuk (talk) 16:53, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

GamingBolt's "Top 98 Games" + keeping track of what lists have been rejected

GamingBolt has a list of the "Top 98 greatest video games ever made" (12 and 76 aren't there for some reason), but it doesn't say if it was chosen by editors or by voters. GamingBolt is a reliable source according to Wikipedia:VG/RS, but I'm unsure if this list has already been proposed or not.

https://gamingbolt.com/top-98-greatest-video-games-ever-made

Is there any list of countdowns and such that have been rejected? I don't want to spam this page too much with lists that have already been rejected.

--Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the article's just bugged due to site updates etc. Here's an archived version, which is already incorporated. The preamble implies a staff-chosen list, saying they would "try and chronicle the top 100 games of all time"; further down, the list is called "our list", also. Phediuk (talk) 22:20, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, it's the same list with same byline, for some reason they've just removed two entries. -- ferret (talk) 22:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

My mistake, then. Weird that they removed two entries. -- Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 22:59, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Why a minimum of 6 and not 5 lists?

Hi,

Just curious, why did this site decide to make the minimum amount of lists a game needs to be on to be on the page six lists and not 5?

Just seems kind of odd to me, since 5 seems, in a strange way, simpler and less random than just 6.

Could this be changed in the future? Eseseso (talk) 17:19, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Eseseso

Because a discussion reached a consensus that 6 was an appropriate cutoff. There is nothing less arbitrary or random about "5", which the list did use before, it's simply that a lot of people like multiples of 5 naturally. A discussion just last year reaffirmed not changing the requirement, so I don't think it's time for another one yet, especially without a solid argument beyond "but 5 seems simpler". -- ferret (talk) 17:34, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, then.

Would it be possible to get a link to this discussion?

I just want to know why the selected number for the cutoff was 6. Eseseso (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Eseseso, here. Haleth (talk) 22:09, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Potential reliable source list: Game On! From Pong to Oblivion, 2006

I’ve found a print book I believe is suitable for incorporation, but as its reliability has not been determined, I submit it to you first for your appraisal. The book is Game On! From Pong to Oblivion – The 50 Greatest Video Games of All Time (2006). A sample entry can be viewed here. First, the publisher is Headline Publishing Group, a real publisher, so this is not some vanity project. Second, all three of the book’s authors have career credentials in the video game industry: David McCarthy was previously a staff member for Edge, and worked for Rockstar Games, per his profile here. Ste Curran also wrote for Edge, and has worked as a developer and delivered many lectures on game design at conferences etc., and wrote the book Game Plan: Great Designs that Changed the Face of Computer Gaming. Simon Byron has written for PCGamesN, Gamesindustry.biz, and Game Developer (aka Gamasutra), among other publications. The trio have collaborated on other books, also, such as The Complete Guide to Game Development, Art, and Design and The Art of Producing Games; they also formerly had a group blog, The Triforce, as well as an affiliated gaming podcast, One Life Left. Additionally, a quick Google search shows that the book has been cited several times in academic gaming journals. Finally, the book’s list meets the other criteria, too: editor-chosen, clearly about the best games, and no platform/era/genre restrictions. Here is a transcription of the list (which is unranked):

Game On! From Pong to Oblivion, 2006

Advance Wars: Dual Strike Animal Crossing: Wild World Asteroids Bangai-O Battlefield 1942 Broken Sword: Shadow of the Templars Call of Duty 2 Civilization II Command & Conquer Dance Dance Revolution Dead or Alive 4 The Elder Scrolls IV : Oblivion Elite Eye Toy: Play Final Fantasy VII F-Zero GX Goldeneye Grand Theft Auto 3 Gran Turismo 4 Guitar Hero Half Life Halo Ico Jak & Daxter: The Precursor Legacy Jet Set Radio Future The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Lumines Madden NFL 06 Mario Kart DS Metal Gear Solid Outrun Pac-Man Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire Pong Pro Evolution Soccer 5 Resident Evil 4 Rez Ridge Racer The Sims Soul Calibur II Space Invaders Street Fighter II Super Mario 64 Super Mario Bros. Tetris Tomb Raider (1996) Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 3 Virtua Tennis Warioware, Inc: Mega Microgame$! World of Warcraft

I will await comments here regarding the source’s reliability before incorporating this list. Phediuk (talk) 00:45, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

• Looks good to me. It's something similar to 1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die right? Not sure if it will have its own Wikipedia page, but that's not relevant for the purpose of determining whether it can be cited for the list. Haleth (talk) 00:58, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Honestly it seems pretty reliable to me. The three authors were all involved in the video game industry directly, it was cited by several academic sources, and there are no restrictions in regards to which games were chosen. Don't see any reason to not include it.

Looking over the omnibus data, it seems that this list will result in the additions of Ridge Racer, F-Zero GX, Call of Duty 2, and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 08:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Ridge Racer will be at 5 sources, even assuming there are no objections to this source. Also, Gran Turismo 4 will be added, again assuming this passes muster. Since this discussion concerns the source's reliability, I will wait a few days for any comments on it. Phediuk (talk) 17:20, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Weird. The omnibus listed Ridge Racer as already having 5 sources, though I could be mistaken. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 20:43, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

If you're talking about the visualised data it was a mistake on my end, my apologies. I think I may have accidentally counted Next Generation 1999's entry which was a series collective entry. It is indeed at 4 sources currently, 5 if this one gets added. Apologies once again--I have fixed it.

As for my opinion on the source, it seems reliable since the authors are involved in the industry as mentioned. I'd have no problem adding it. BenSPVE (talk) 00:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Since all comments were in favor of inclusion, I went ahead and incorporated the list, resulting in the addition of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, F-Zero GX, Gran Turismo 4, and Call of Duty 2. I have also added the Game On! list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 20:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Visualised document has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 03:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

The Last of Us Part II

Since this game has been showing up on best games lists recently, I want to bring up an interesting question.

First of all, I haven’t played the game, so I’m in no position to address the game’s qualities and drawbacks.

However, I have heard a lot of people (the general gaming audience) complain about the game greatly for one reason or another—despite the praise from critics.

Is this a situation where the game COULD be added even though the general consensus is the game is lackluster? BlueBlurHog (talk) 02:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

If the game appears on enough lists, it will be added. It has a 93 metacritic so that would hardly be surprising. We don't go by anecdotal feel of player reception. And the user rating on MC, even if we paid attention to it, was heavily review bombed and covered as such. -- ferret (talk) 02:55, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

If player reception was a factor, then Destiny wouldn't have been included.

Six listings from six different publications that meet the standards of the page are all that's required. If The Last of Us Part II meets that requirement, it will be added. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 05:17, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

• That is far from the "general consensus"—it holds the record for most Game of the Year awards ever—and the opinions of "the general gaming audience" falls under WP:USERG anyway. As Anonymouseditor2k19 says, all that matters is how many publications include it on their lists. That's literally the only relevant factor here. – Rhain ☔ 05:21, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

PC & Tech Authority's "100 games to play before you die"

Here's a possible list from PC & Tech Authority. They were an Australian computer magazine who were acquired in 2018 by Future Publishing Australia and folded into APC. While their website has been gone for a while, I did find an archive of their list:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150703042618/http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Feature/362415,100-games-to-play-before-you-die.aspx

Interestingly enough, the selection process or so seems to have had Hyper's involvement (who already have three lists accounted for), but there was no open voting from readers; just journalists and editors making the decision as to which games made the cut, none of which were limited by any specific category (year, platform, genre, etc.) Only two entries from this list couldn't be counted, as Pokemon and DanceDanceRevolution were listed as the entire series, rather than specific games from either.

PC and Tech Authority 2013

Advance Wars Age of Empires Aliens Versus Predator (1999) Baldur’s Gate Batman: Arkham Asylum Battlefield 1942 Blast Corps Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare Castlevania Chrono Trigger Civilization V Commander Keen: Goodbye Galaxy! Conker’s Bad Fur Day Counter-Strike Dark Souls Defense of the Anicents (AKA DotA) Donkey Kong Country Double Dragon DuckTales Duke Nukem 3D The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Fallout 3 Final Fantasy VII Final Fantasy VIII Final Fight Gauntlet God of War II Golden Axe GoldenEye 007 Grand Theft Auto III Guardian Heroes Half-Life Halo: Combat Evolved Ico Journey Killer Instinct (1994) The Last of Us League of Legends The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Lemmings Limbo Mario Kart 64 Mega Man Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater Metal Slug Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out!! (AKA Punch-Out!! Featuring Mr. Dream) Mortal Kombat (2011) Mutant League Football Myst NBA Jam Ninja Gaiden (1988) Pac-Man Championship Edition Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Pitfall! Portal Portal 2 Prince of Persia Professor Layton and the Curious Village Quake Red Dead Redemption Resident Evil 4 Rez (AKA Rez Infinite) Rome: Total War Rock Band Sam & Max Hit the Road Samurai Shodown (1992) Shenmue SimCity Sonic CD Sonic the Hedgehog Soul Calibur II Star Wars: Dark Forces Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Star Wars: TIE Fighter StarCraft Street Fighter II Street Fighter III Streets of Rage 2 Stunts Super Mario 64 Super Mario Bros. 3 Super Mario World Super Metroid Super Smash Bros. Melee Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time Tetris Trials HD Uncharted 2: Among Thieves Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines Virtua Fighter 4 The Walking Dead Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings Wolfenstein 3D Wonder Boy in Monster Land World of Warcraft Worms Armageddon

I will leave this list up for discussion to see if people think it meets the criteria or not. --Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The list is defined only as "most essential games", and nowhere as a list of best games, not even in passing, nor in any of the entries (compare to the 1001 Games book, which does explicitly say "best games" right on the back cover), so I'm going to say no. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Phediuk (talk) 04:50, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll keep that in mind the next time I come across one of these "games to play before you die" articles. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 05:39, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion Criteria Proposal

I don't know how common this type of proposal is, but I'm making one. I've got a few ideas that I believe, if put into the criteria, could make this article better, and better represent what's considered the best by the majority of the gaming community.

1) Allow "Reader's Choice" and polls to be added as sources, as long as the source that took the poll is notable. I believe that they should be added because they provide a way better look into the gaming community's general reception of a game than editor teams and publication staffs. (although, those should still be sources too.)

2) To expand on 1, it might help if Wikipedia editors had the chance to vote for their favorite game, with whatever game getting the most votes getting one source counting towards their inclusion in this article.

3) The reliability of the source shouldn't matter unless they're unreliable really often, because it's all opinion-based when it comes to the Best Games Ever. (If the people that read the Looper argument I was in on this talk page are seeing this, that isn't why I'm proposing this lmao.)

4) Increasing the required amount of sources from 6 to 7. I propose this for multiple reasons: Adding that extra source insures that more of the games on this list truly stand out among other games in the eyes of the gaming community, quite a few of these sources have LOTS of games on their list and a 500th place has the same amount of weight as a 1st place in this article, and we really don't have a way to change that right now. It also helps the list not become taken over by Nintendo games, and if my other proposals are accepted, then this NEEDS to be done to balance the amount of games that will be able to get on this list a lot easier.

I feel like this post should get bumped up or something like that so it can get as much feedback as possible, both in support and in opposition.

Thanks for reading this way too long post, and please provide your opinions on these. EDIT: It'd be nice if you pinged me when replying, too.

SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Opposed to all four. Reader's Choice polls are user-generated, and unreliable. Wikipedian editors voting falls into the same category. Bullet 3 is absolutely non-negotiable. We're not going to allow unreliable sources on this list, WP:RS is a core Wikipedia guideline. As for the final bullet, we are still constantly asked "Why don't we lower the limit to 5?" for a variety of reasons, with some even advocating that more than 3 (based on WP:N guidelines that "3 refs are usually enough) is unsupported by any policy or guideline. I believe that consensus is capable of determining an appropriate number, arbitrary though it may be. But no compelling argument has been presented in my view for increasing the number either. This list is not unwieldy or exceedingly large at this time. We have no technical reasons to try to limit it's length or scope at this time. That could change in the future, but I see no need right now to consider such a proposal. Coupled with the fact that the rationale here includes "if allowing unreliable sources is accepted", I'm a definite no. Also, you should watchlist the article, you cannot expect every reply to ping you especially when making a proposal. -- ferret (talk) 22:49, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

1 allows people that don't have publications that have staff to vote for games they think are the best, and their vote is a small part of the results, assuming that a lot of people voted. I feel like it's a bit unfair that you have to have a big publication with a staff to be able to count towards this article.

2 doesn't add that much benefit tbh.

3 is kinda dumb as well, but I stand behind 4. SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@SpiderBreadIRL Wikipedia is built on reliable sources. It's basically non-negotiable here. Telling me you stand behind 4 adds no weight to the argument. -- ferret (talk) 23:48, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the proposals, but I agree on all counts with ferret. All lists have to be from reliable sources, not user opinions or polls of random people. I am skeptical of any argument based on lowering the sourcing standards of the page. Phediuk (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Opposed to all of the proposals, especially the second one. It's not our role to decide what gets on the list based on our personal opinion, it's our role to document reliable sources and lists and combine them in a comprehensive article. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 04:08, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Opposed, per Anonymouseditor2k19. If anything, we need to steer this away further away from the opinion of editors, even where there is a consensus of a few editors. Reliable sources are essential and have the widest possible consensus on Wikipedia. Shooterwalker (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

TOP 15 games of all time - PPE editors choose

Found a list on the Polish website PPE.pl. Despite it being a short list, there doesn't appear to be any limitations on what games got chosen (i.e. platform, publisher, year, etc.) and it was all decided by the editors themselves. I'm aware of it lacking some games that usually show up on

https://www.ppe.pl/publicystyka/210354/top-15-gier-wszech-czasow--redakcja-ppe-wybiera.html

PPE.pl, 2021
15. Red Dead Redemption 2 14. Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation 13. Crash Team Racing 12. Another World 11. Need for Speed: Most Wanted 2005 10. Bloodborne 9. Tomb Raider 1996 8. God of War 2018 7. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas 6. Metal Gear Solid 5. Silent Hill 2 4. Mass Effect 2 3. Final Fantasy VII 2. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 1. The Last of Us

Gonna leave this up for further discussion.

--Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 23:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Looks like the site has a decent number of citations on WP, too, supporting its case for reliability. Thoughts? Phediuk (talk) 01:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

It seems to be a pretty sizeable Polish outlet for games, getting around the same amount of visitors in Poland as Twitch, and more than wargaming.net. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 01:24, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Recommend tossing this at WP:VG/S for a week to mull. As always, getting a reliable stamp on non-English sources is a good thing. -- ferret (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Posted it on WP:VG/S for evaluation. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 02:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

PPE looks like it will pass its WP:VG/S evaluation, so I went ahead and incorporated its list, resulting in two additions to the main page: God of War and Red Dead Redemption II. I have also added the PPE list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 06:57, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Nice to see some of the more recent games get added to the list. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 09:22, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Hmmmm I'd like to have given it a little more time but I think it won't matter. -- ferret (talk) 15:18, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah it seems to be a pretty reliable one overall, good we were able to get another foreign language source. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 23:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Visualised document has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 02:34, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The Greatest Games, 1985

Now, here’s something interesting. I was digging around to see if there were any usable lists from before 1995, and I actually found one that looks good: the book The Greatest Games: The 93 Best Computer Games of All Time, from 1985, which chronicles "all the best electronic games." It is written by Dan Gutman and Shay Addams, two former editors of Computer Games Magazine (some covers visible here -- issue 6 indicates it included both console and home computer coverage), and published by Compute!'s book publishing arm, meaning it looks rock solid as a RS. I was surprised at how well-informed the write-ups are; I didn’t realize that this much information was out there in 1985, but the authors clearly know their stuff about as well as was possible then. Unlike Compute! itself, the authors of this book use the term "computer games" to mean the entire medium of electronic games, of which they consider "video games" to be a subset (i.e., consoles and arcades). They refer to Pong, for instance, as a computer game (p. vii), saying, "Computer game playing has come a long way since the days of Pong"; Space Invaders is treated the same way, saying, "Space Invaders caused an adrenaline rush that addicted many of us to computer games" (p. 224). The book in general also considers arcade games in general to be computer games, hence this quote: "While it's true that the early days of arcade games were dominated by the hand-eye, blow-their-brains- out twitch games for kids, they're only a small part of it all today. Computer games have grown up" (p. 53). So, the term "computer game" should not be construed to mean simply home computer platforms. The selections bear this logic out: the authors list numerous arcade games, discussing a few of them (such as Pac-Man and Missile Command) solely as arcade games, without discussing the home versions at all. Furthermore, while consoles are a pretty minor part of the book, it does still recommend the Atari 2600 version of Demon Attack and 5200 version of Robotron specifically, as well as listing console versions in all relevant entries, so they don’t actually exclude any platforms. Therefore, the book meets all criteria: reliable source (and publisher), editor-chosen, clearly about best games, no platform/era/genre restrictions. The entries are unranked and grouped by loose categories. I’ve transcribed this list in the order the games appear in the book:

The Greatest Games, 1985

Star League Baseball One-on-One Summer Games International Soccer Ballblazer Jumpman and Jumpman Jr. (dual entry) Hard Hat Mack Miner 2049er Spy’s Demise Popeye Operation Whirlwind Knights of the Desert Combat Leader Pole Position Turbo Pitstop Rally Speedway Sargon III Fax Intellectual Decathlon Oil’s Well Ms. Pac-Man Juice Boulder Dash Kid Grid Space Taxi Zork Planetfall The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy Cutthroats Earthly Delights Dragonworld Fahrenheit 451 The Mask of the Sun Lucifer’s Realm Mindshadow Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord Ultima III: Exodus Xyphus Sundog: Frozen Legacy Timeship: Murder at the End of Time Blue Max Demon Attack Turmoil Repton (C64) Zaxxon Astro Chase Beach-Head Minit Man Dimension X Crossfire Shamus: Case II Defender Robotron 2084 Rescue on Fractalus Choplifter Fort Apocalypse Rescue Squad Oil Barons M.U.L.E. Millionaire Run for the Money Ken Uston’s Professional Blackjack Deadline The Witness (1983) Suspect Murder on the Zinderneuf Murder by the Dozen Drol Frogger Preppie Q*bert Pogo Joe Space Invaders Pac-Man Donkey Kong Centipede Missile Command Mastertype The Seven Cities of Gold Snooper Troops Agent USA The Arcade Machine Lode Runner Pinball Construction Set Night Mission Pinball Adventure Construction Set Archon: The Light and the Dark Castle Wolfenstein and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein (dual entry) Flight Simulator and Flight Simulator II (dual entry) Spare Change Aztec Realm of Impossibility

If there are no objections to this list, I'll go ahead and incorporate it; Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord and Archon: The Light and the Dark will be added to the page. Phediuk (talk) 08:25, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Go for it. Seems like this is the oldest list we have so far. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 09:07, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

As there were no objections to this book, and it appears to meet all criteria, I have now incorporated it. I have also added the list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 23:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Visualised document has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 02:34, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Popularmechanics.com

This site has recently released it's top 100 games of all time, should we add this publication ? Shank19112000 (talk) 05:44, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Shank19112000: If you're referring to this one, it's the same as the 2019 list, which has already been added. – Rhain ☔ 06:06, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

"The 20 best games of all time" - GameOver.gr

Found a list from a Greek gaming website called GameOver.gr. I already sent it to WP:VG/S for evaluation on whether it can be considered reliable or not, so until I get a result, I'm gonna leave this list here. No limitations on games as far as I know, and the list didn't have any audience voting/participation involved.

https://www.gameover.gr/2005/03/28/ta-20-kalytera-paixnidia-olon-ton-epoxon-part-1/

https://www.gameover.gr/2005/04/01/ta-20-kalytera-paixnidia-olon-ton-epoxon-part-2/

https://www.gameover.gr/2005/04/07/ta-20-kalytera-paixnidia-olon-ton-epoxon-part-3/

https://www.gameover.gr/2005/04/13/ta-20-kalytera-paixnidia-olon-ton-epoxon-part-4/

The 20 best games of all time - GameOver.gr, 2005
20. Resident Evil 4 19. Super Mario 64 18. Ms. Pac-Man 17. Virtua Tennis 16. Galaga 15. Tomb Raider 14. Baldur's Gate 13. Doom 12. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 11. Tetris 10. Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec 9. Pro Evolution Soccer 4 8. Metroid Prime 7. Soulcalibur II 6. Halo 5. GoldenEye 4. Metal Gear Solid 3. Final Fantasy VII 2. Half-Life 2 1. Ico

--Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 09:15, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

This one is going to be tougher to vet than ppl.pl I think. Participants urged to head over to WP:VG/S and do a serious effort to analyze the source. Remember we don't want to say "This is good!" just for the sake of adding to this article. -- ferret (talk) 13:07, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

New Looper List and a few questions

I found a Looper "Best Video Games of All Time" List, would it count? It's from this year, earlier this month, in fact, and written by their staff. 98 Best Video Games of All Time I think it would count, just making sure that nobody else objects.

Looper's 98 Best Video Games of All Time, published 05/04/22

Ms. Pac-Man, RollerCoaster Tycoon, Galaga, Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors , Myst, Firewatch, The World Ends With You, Spec Ops: The Line, Sam & Max Save the World, Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair, Sly 2: Band of Thieves, Journey, Gears of War 3, Hades, Viewtiful Joe, Devil May Cry 5, Dragon Quest 8: Journey of the Cursed King, Team Fortress 2, Hollow Knight, Borderlands 2, Kentucky Route Zero, Doki Doki Literature Club,Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal, Okami, Batman: Arkham City,Horizon Zero Dawn, Psychonauts, Outer Wilds, Dead Cells, Fire Emblem: Three Houses, Yakuza 6: The Song of Life, Pokémon Diamond and Pearl (Two different games grouped in one spot), Shin Megami Tensei 5, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Katamari Damacy, Alan Wake, Grim Fandango, Undertale, Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem, Pokemon Legends: Arceus, Knights of the Old Republic, Persona 4, Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception, Yakuza 0, Harvest Moon 64, Fallout: New Vegas, Pikmin, Tekken 3, StarCraft 2, BioShock, Grand Theft Auto 4, Animal Crossing: New Horizons, God of War (2018), Metal Gear Solid, Bloodborne, System Shock 2, Earthbound, Donkey Kong Country, Tetris, The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, The Sims, League of Legends, Diablo 2, Elden Ring, Persona 5 Royal, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Doom, Super Mario Bros., Fallout 3, Resident Evil 4, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, Grand Theft Auto 5, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, Silent Hill 2, The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim, Metroid Prime, World of Warcraft, Halo 3, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (titled "Zelda: Ocarina of Time" in the article), Half-Life 2, Dark Souls, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Street Fighter 2, Red Dead Redemption 2, Minecraft, Shadow of the Colossus, Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green (once again two games in the same spot), Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 7, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Super Metroid, Portal 2, The Last of Us, Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017) (Titled "Breath of the Wild" in the article), Super Mario 64

Now that I'm done copying and pasting video game titles, I've got a few questions related to what counts and doesn't count as a video game for this list:

1) Would a game compliation count as a different game from the games in it? For instance, if Super Mario 3D All-Stars had six sources saying it was the best, would that game be added to the Wiki page as if it was a stand-alone game, or would the games in it be added to the wiki page?

2) Also, if they were remastered, like the Crash Bandicoot N-Sane Trilogy or Sonic Orgins, would that count as its own game?

3) Are VR games allowed on the list?

4) If a now closed MMO met the criteria, like Club Penguin, would it be added?

Thanks, and sorry for the super long post, SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 16:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Replying specifically on the topic of Looper and its' reliability, this one is going to need discussion. Looper and sister sites are regularly seen as relying on clickbait and churnalism, and I'm not sure they're a high enough quality source for us to use here. The last discussion at WP:VG/S was not implemented into the source list but was leaning Unreliable: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources/Archive_26#Looper -- ferret (talk) 17:19, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

On the other hand, Looper is widely cited on WP, indicating at least some acceptance of it. Furthermore, even if the site does post clickbait, this particular list is quite good, even contextualizing the critical reception of most games on the list with reference to relevant sources. I would vote yes for this, but I won't incorporate it unless the discussion here is clearly in favor. As for SpiderBreadIRL's other questions, 1) yes, a compilation that met the source threshold would go on the list, but this has never been relevant, since these lists tend not to feature compilations; 2) Yes, those are generally considered their own games by RSes, so they would count; 3) Yes, VR games are allowed; 4) Yes, closed MMOs are allowed if the sources list them. Phediuk (talk) 21:38, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Secondary note: Although published on Looper, the byline says it is by the staff of SVG. WT:VG/S is currently discussing SVG with a similar lean towards unreliable. I would hold off a little while as well, because despite being published last week, it's been edited today so they seem to still be making changes. -- ferret (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I vote for using it for this article, because it's a good list, and because SVG is listed as a reliable source in the WikiProject because of their "Strict fact-checking policy".

Also, thanks Phediuk. SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 00:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

SVG has just been removed from the list last week today due to the discussion not showing a clear consensus of reliability. The currently in progress discussion is leaning to unreliable. -- ferret (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards "yes" as well. The list itself is well-written, citing scores, reviews and articles from notable outlets like IGN, GamesRader+, etc. Even is SVG is currently being debated over at WT:VG/S, this article is good enough by itself in terms of content, research, and comprehensiveness. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 05:37, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely opposed to us using any list from a publication the wikiproject determines should be treated unreliable. That discussion needs to concluded. -- ferret (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

My opinion on it is that the quality of the news shouldn't really matter for the purpose of this article because it's not news, but rather, an opinion-based list about video games. I feel like the criteria for inclusion needs to be changed so that it doesn't have to be a reliable source. I also think "Reader's Choice" type articles should be included, but that's a discussion for another time.

On another note: If included, 2018's God of War would reach 6 sources, and be the first game released after 2017 to do so, and I've seen multiple complaints that not a single game from the last 5 years has made the list.

I vote to Use it, and I believe Phediuk and Anonymouseditor2k19 are as well. EDIT: please tag me when you reply because I don't get talk page notifications unless it's on Teahouse or my talk page, and I have to check this article. SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 22:39, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@SpiderBreadIRL You've got to be kidding. We're not going to include a source just so God of War can be listed. The idea that we would use unreliable sources is a direct guideline violation. The list would explode would hundreds of blog and junk "my top games" lists. This is core Wikipedia guideline, WP:RS. -- ferret (talk) 23:01, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

That wasn't the reason I wanted to add it to the article, I was just noting that it would be the most recent game on the list, although I see how my wording could make it sound like bias. SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I said I was leaning towards "yes", but SnowFire has brought up some good points about the credited writers being changed from "SVG staff" to "Looper staff". So yeah, until good examples of actual journalism from Looper have been brought up, I'm gonna have to retract what I said. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 10:54, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

"Xbox Error: How To Fix 'There Was A Problem With The Update'"

"Why You Can't Play Past Puzzles In Wordle Anymore" is pretty good.

"Batman: Arkham Asylum Was Actually Pitched As A Rhythm Game"

"Custom Series X Consoles That Are Better Than The Real Thing" SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 14:44, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

All of these are... really poor articles that we wouldn't use for anything in other articles (i.e. the Xbox articles, Arkham Asylum's article, Wordle's article). Additionally, it's surprising how many of these backlink and repeat their own stories or SVG's. I'm beginning to wonder if the two publications are actually truly separate operations. -- ferret (talk) 15:17, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

A lot of these still seem to be low-effort repacks of others work (which is okay in moderation, but... not what I was looking for as an example of 'this is not just a glorified blog'.). The Wordle Archive shutdown was covered elsewhere and Looper has nothing new ([1]). The Arkham Asylum tidbit is just a repost of someone else's news story from 2009 ([2] ) (as noted in the article), except with more ads and internal Looper links. (Maybe if they'd been the one to scoop out that interesting paragraph, but I see destructoid did 13 years ago.) I can't speak to the XBox article as it looks like it's citing some random Redditors / YouTubers on a topic I don't know, so it's unclear if this really is surfacing hidden wisdom, or if it's just some extremely specific fixes that won't translate to other users. Anyway, I'm not demanding Jason Schreier style long-form journalism exposes. Does Looper do things like game reviews? How often? That's probably the easiest criterion to meet... SnowFire (talk) 16:03, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, all things considered, Looper really shouldn't be on here. However, I have found a WatchMojo list, and WatchMojo is a RS, and it seems to be written by their staff, not just one person.

WatchMojo Top Ten
Goldeneye 007, Resident Evil 4, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Mass Effect 2, Portal 2, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, Half Life 2, Tetris, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

I think it should be on here, and the only change to the visual omnibus will be Half-Life 2, which will go from 0 to 1 source. SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 21:47, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@SpiderBreadIRL You really need to provide links, and any new list should be discussed separate in a new section. -- ferret (talk) 22:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I already have two sections open and don't want to open a new one right now, but I'll make a new one when they get archived. SpiderBreadIRL (talk) 23:12, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother. WatchMojo is not an RS, per WP:VG/S. – Rhain ☔ 02:06, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Watchmojo is absolutely not a reliable source, especially since their lists rely on voting from their followers. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 04:09, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

How in God's name is WM a reliable source?

Like others have said, their lists are mostly (if not totally) based on fan votes. Eseseso (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• It does appear that this particular list is decent (if nothing else, they have written short explanations and reasonings why each game is good that don't appear to be copied off of Wikipedia/Metacritic descriptions, so it wasn't completely low-effort). The fact it's attributed to just "Looper staff" and is crammed full of ads is not great. Basically, checking the site, it appears that the issues raised in the VGRS discussion are still there - there's still a bunch of clickbait and churnalism in their "Gaming" section (there's a recent article titled "Why Team Cherry Won't Release Hollow Knight: Silksong" and the article does not actually include why it hasn't been released yet, just empty speculation). That said, every website has some of that, so the question is if Looper has some reliable stories mixed in with clickbait, or it's just generally unusable. Does anyone have some sample works of good journalism that Looper has done? i.e. not examples of bad stories, but examples of genuinely good ones? SnowFire (talk) 00:29, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
  • I'm bothered by the instability. Just yesterday, it said it was by the SVG Staff, not Looper. It has been "edited" every day I've checked it since this section opened. -- ferret (talk) 01:17, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

  All I know about Looper is that they do indeed have multiple game journalists in their staff, although I don't know if this is enough to verify the list.

  Also, the fact that the list is apparently constantly edited (although I don't know what the edits are for so they could possibly just be minor things like spelling) is still kind of sus to me. 98.235.164.156 (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry, this was me replying but I hadn't noticed that I forgot to log in.

  But yeah, while I'd like the list to be accepted, the editing stuff is really sus to me. Eseseso (talk) 16:18, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

2 questions involving 2 potential sources

1. First off, is the book "The Gamer's Bucket List: 50 games to play before you die" by Chris Watters a potentially reliable source (like the currently accepted 1001 games to play before you die)? I mean, I haven't been able to actually find a way to read the book online, but if anyone else has the book, it seems to me like it may be a reliable source (since it doesn't seem different from the other accepted books that list the best games of all time).

2. Is the list of "101 video games to play before you die" by Two Beard Gaming a potential reliable source?

I mean, the site of Two Beard Gaming is already used as a source in at least one wikipedia article.

If it is accepted, then Perfect Dark and Theme Park will each get their 6th entry and thus be added to the page.

Eseseso (talk) 20:52, 24 May 2022 (UTC)Eseseso

1. It has to explicitly refer to the games as the "greatest of all time" or some variation thereof in order to qualify.

2. Two Beard Gaming has only been cited twice on Wikipedia and are a pretty minor outlet overall, so I doubt they meet the qualifications set forward by Wikipedia, unless if you want to go over to WP:VG/S yourself to argue in their favor. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 21:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Gamereactor.dk's Top 100 Best Games ever

So I may have come across a list from Gamereactor that isn't integrated into the article, this time coming from their Denmark branch. I did some cross-referencing with the Gamereactor list already being used, and it turns out this is a completely different one, as well as a more recent one. For starters, this list is from 2017, rather than 2011. Aside from that, it explicitly states that it was decided upon by the editorial staff, and there don't appear to be any limitations in place based on platform, year of release, genre, etc.

https://www.gamereactor.dk/artikler/438333/Gamereactors+Top+100+bedste+spil+nogensinde+101/

Gamereactor.dk's Top 100 Best Games Ever, 2017

100. Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft 99. Dead Rising 98. Burnout: Revenge 97. Deus Ex: Human Revolution 96. Lost Odyssey 95. Rainbow Six: Vegas 94. Rocket League 93. Street Fighter V 92. Poy! Poy! 91. BioShock Infinite 90. Secret of Mana 89. Xenoblade Chronicles 88. Myst 87. Resident Evil 2 86. TimeSplitters 85. Beyond Good & Evil 84. SSX On Tour 83. Spyro the Dragon 82. Forza Horizon 2 81. Valkyria Chronicles 80. Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag 79. Hitman: Blood Money 78. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! 77. Persona 4 Golden 76. SimCity 2000 75. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time 74. Silent Hill 2 73. Borderlands 72. Kingdom Hearts 71. Call of Duty 2 70. Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny 69. Battlefield: Vietnam 68. Super Mario World 67. Final Fantasy VI 66. God of War III 65. Super Smash Bros. Melee 64. Tekken 3 63. Gears of War 2 62. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 61. Okami 60. Skate 2 59. Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening 58. Contra 57. Limbo 56. Gran Turismo 2 55. Counter-Strike 54. Wii Sports 53. Micro-Maniacs 52. Earthbound 51. Dead Space 50. Mass Effect 2 49. Half-Life 48. Heavy Rain 47. Ico 46. Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped 45. Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos 44. Age of Empires II: Age of Kings 43. Rayman 42. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 41. Pokemon: Red & Blue 40. Max Payne 39. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 38. Portal 37. Fallout 3 36. The Walking Dead: Season One 35. Diablo 2 34. Grand Theft Auto V 33. Grim Fandango 32. Mega Man 2 31. Alan Wake 30. Sid Meier's Pirates (2004) 29. Knights of the Old Republic 28. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 27. Doom (1993) 26. Tetris (1984) 25. World of Warcraft 24. Journey 23. Shadow of the Colossus 22. The Last of Us 21. GoldenEye 007 20. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 19. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 18. Halo 2 17. Super Mario Bros. 3 16. Inside 15. Half-Life 2 14. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 13. Chrono Trigger 12. BioShock 11. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess 10. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 9. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 8. Resident Evil 4 7. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 6. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 5. Dark Souls 4. Red Dead Redemption 3. Final Fantasy VII 2. Uncharted 4: A Thief's End 1. Super Mario Galaxy

--Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 07:48, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Nice work. This list meets all criteria -- staff-chosen, clearly about best games, no platform/era/genre restrictions, and RS -- so I will incorporate it shortly. Crash Bandicoot: Warped, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Borderlands, God of War III, Xenoblade Chronicles, and Uncharted 4: A Thief's End will all be added to the main page. Phediuk (talk) 09:19, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. I have also added the Gamereactor list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 12:42, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Nice find. The visualised data has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 16:05, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Spreadsheet shows Dota 2 has 4 votes, but it is on the list

Issue with the spreadsheet, or included on the main list by mistake? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.28.51.191 (talk) 16:59, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Error in the spreadsheet; the citations on the main page are correct. Phediuk (talk) 18:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Honestly no idea how that happened, thanks for catching it. I've fixed the issue--if anyone finds anymore errors feel free to ping me, with as many data values as there are I'm sure there's a green box missing here or there. BenSPVE (talk) 15:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Is it possible to sort the list by the game with most appearances in lists to least?

I'm personally curious to see it that way. If not possible, is there an off-wiki version of this list that is sorted that way?

Games with highest number of lists --> to games with six lists. Neocorelight (Talk) 11:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

As this page is not a tally, it deliberately does not claim any kind of meta-ranking for the games listed. However, you can still infer, fairly easily, how many lists a given game is on by just scrolling down to the Notes section. Phediuk (talk) 14:42, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Not proposing any changes, but I think it's interesting to see it ranked like that, so I can see many of the top-listed games. Neocorelight (Talk) 15:17, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I thought about keeping that data on the spreadsheet in some manner but it is just unnecessary work, as interesting as it may be. Maybe sometime in the future I'll go ahead and add it. BenSPVE (talk) 15:50, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

If its not automatically maintained then I personally wouldn't bother. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

GQ's 2020 list

The Spanish edition of GQ updated their Top 100 list in 2020.

GQ, 2020

100. Barbarian 99. NBA 2K13 98. Firewatch 97. Superbrothers: Sword & Sorcery 96. Counter-Strike: Source 95. Overwatch 94. Metroid Prime 93. The Witness 92. Horizon Zero Dawn 91. Grim Fandango 90. Pitfall! 89. Cuphead 88. Super Mario Kart 87. Ikaruga 86. Fortnite 85. Final Fantasy VII 84. Spider-Man (2018) 83. Simcity 2000 82. Shenmue 81. Untitled Goose Game 80. Tomb Raider (1996) 79. Skate 78. Minecraft 77. Left 4 Dead 2 76. Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 2 75. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time 74. Civilization IV 73. Gears of War 2 72. Sonic the Hedgehog 71. Okami 70. Advance Wars 69. Team Fortress 2 68. Diablo 2 67. Mega Man 2 66. Braid 65. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 64. Journey 63. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 62. Dark Souls 61. Batman: Arkham City 60. Super Mario Galaxy 2 59. Mass Effect 2 58. World of Warcraft 57. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 56. Shadow of the Colossus 55. Super Metroid 54. Shadow of the Beast (1989) 53. Borderlands 2 52. Just Cause 2 51. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 50. Rock Band 49. Black 48. Castle of Illusion (1990) 47. Panzer Dragoon 46. Destiny 45. La abadía del crimen 44. Metal Slug 43. Psychonauts 42. Lemmings 41. Arkanoid: Revenge of Doh 40. Animal Crossing: New Horizons 39. The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim 38. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 37. Contra 3: The Alien Wars 36. Gradius 5 35. Chrono Trigger 34. Max Payne 3 33. Quake 32. Mortal Kombat (1992) 31. Outrun 30. Deus Ex 29. Popeye 28. Wipeout HD 27. Bayonetta 26. Bioshock Infinite 25. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 24. Halo 23. Final Fight 22. Dishonored 21. X-COM: UFO Defense 20. Fallout 2 19. Ghosts 'n Goblins 18. Manhunt 17. Burnout Paradise 16. Street Fighter 2 15. R-Type 14. Super Hexagon 13. Donkey Kong 12. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 11. Tetris 10. God Hand 9. The Secret of Monkey Island 8. Red Dead Redemption 7. Resident Evil 4 6. The Last of Us: Part II 5. Half-Life 2 4. Silent Hill 2 3. Super Mario World 2. Pac-Man 1. Portal 2

I don't know if the list qualifies any game to the list. --Dreamer plox (talk) 20:20, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

IIRC the changes were already implemented into the Omnibus. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 00:19, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Correct; the 2020 update resulted in only minor changes, all of which are already recorded in the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 06:45, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

7 Sources?

At what point, if any point, would the inclusion criteria go up from 6 to 7? Is it possible the list becomes too unwieldy in the future and the source requirements would have to be increased to keep the list to just the very best games? 2605:A601:AE93:F400:9C15:A7C5:588F:88A2 (talk) 01:14, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

There's no real point in speculating that, unless you're suggesting we have reached such a point. We cannot really predict future consensus changes or why they might come about, until such a discussion is actually posed to change the critiera and discussion ensues. -- ferret (talk) 01:24, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

It would help if you could explain what your definition of "unwieldy" would be. Total prose size of this page is 719 B, 468 B of readable prose size excluding all HTML code. Could you explain the probability that this article could eventually reach a point where it becomes too large for a list article per Wikipedia's article size guidelines in the near future? Haleth (talk) 01:27, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I saw in a discussion page back in March 2019 (Inclusion Criteria: Number of Sources) that the criteria had been upped from 5 to 6 due to concerns of list length, so I was just generally curious if that would ever happen again, I’m not saying the page is or isn’t at that point, I was just, well, speculating, and if this isn’t the place for that then I do apologize 2605:A601:AE93:F400:9539:D12:7BB5:962A (talk) 01:53, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

It's simply that we can't really say, until the time comes that an issue arises. Is it possible we'd move up to 7? Sure. But it's also possible that we'd go down to 5 again, which is also regularly asked. We just won't know until a discussion results in a new consensus. -- ferret (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm personally more inclined to reduce the number of sources than raise it. The amount of readable prose is fine (which ignores the amount of data that comes from citations and markup). I'd sooner remove the genre column. But I'm not sure anyone is proposing anything at this time. Shooterwalker (talk) 04:20, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

While I'd also support the removal of the genre column, I'm not sure how reducing the number of sources would improve the page rather than just dilute it. A game being listed 95th on five lists would be considered to be among the same tier of games such as Ocarina of Time and Halo. The entire point of going to six was to avoid this sort of thing, so I can't see why we'd ever go reduce that without changing something else. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 09:34, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I recognize that other editors disagree, but this list is no longer a summary of what the sources say. We've now substituted our original editorial ideas where something can be "considered the best" by multiple reliable sources, but we've decided as editors that it's not "best" enough, based on some arbitrary number. I think the approach of gradually removing verifiable information is unsustainable, because the singular editors who keep questioning this list do outnumber the more active editors who have watchlisted it. As an active editor, I'm sympathetic to trying to have some kind of standard, but this is the kind of WP:OR approach will eventually attract an RFC, if not an AFD. No one is trying to force the issue now, but I think it's worth re-thinking our overall approach in a proactive way. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

There's no technical or guideline reason that this article would be considered too large at this time. Readable prose is still low, and we aren't even remotely worried about PEIS here. -- ferret (talk) 13:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I feel like decreasing or increasing the amount of sources needed at this point is a pointless endeavor. There will always be more lists produced, and eventually we'd reach a point where someone will request for another increase in the amount of sources needed. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 04:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the source requirment should be increased. Right now there are so many games on this page that it kind of defeats the point of having a page like this. Especially when there is so many from a single year like 2002. It gives a biased viewpoint. Swordman97 ^{talk to me} 22:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the sentiment of increasing criteria... Inclusion on this page has become a bit of a boilerplate for game articles. If an originally curated list is going to have *that* much influence, we should be more concerned on WP:FAN at these (admittedly more abstract) incentives, where fans may have already figured this as a relatively unchecked means to pump prestige for their faves.

The video game review industry is already infamous for its consistently positive, fan-pleasing reviews. "Best" lists are among the few places were meaningful critical distinctions can be made!! Having the 16th most acclaimed game of 2001 in the same category as Super Mario Bros. or Half-Life just defeats this purpose... at this rate we are going to end up having lots of games who were not even the best ones of their weeks posted here. Most of the lists cited here are top 100s, I don't see why we could not have a policy were this becomes the "ideal" target for the article (I am not sure on how to sign this). 2806:2F0:91E0:444B:7C5C:B4AC:378:79B3 (talk) 01:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

"the 16th most acclaimed game of 2001"—this scenario is impossible, since every list cited in this article is "of all time"; there are no "best of the year" lists here. – Rhain ☔ 01:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I do share a concern about how this list has become a sort of "article lead badge" all over the place. And it constantly pollutes my watchlist as people tweak it from "best ever" to "greatest ever" and a dozen other varieties. -- ferret (talk) 01:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Sonic 3&K namesake

Say for a thought that Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles meets the criteria for inclusion.

Would it be entered as two separate games: “Sonic the Hedgehog 3” and “Sonic & Knuckles”, or together as “Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles”? Since that was the original plan for the game’s release. BlueBlurHog (talk) 20:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

This isn't really a fruitful exercise till we have to worry about it. -- ferret (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I’m going to say that they would be considered separate games, therefore separate entries, as the two are generally considered to be two different games 2605:A601:AE99:A300:5993:800F:CF6D:8CFF (talk) 00:55, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Super GamePower's best games of all time list

As a Brazilian, I tried to find some sources from here to add to the article and I think I found one. Brazilian magazine Super GamePower (pt:Super GamePower) published a list of the best games of all time (os melhores games de todos os tempos) in 2001, of which you can find a screenshot here. According to this page, it was created by the magazine's team/writing crew. (Just to clarify, the list itself is a "poster magazine" included separately from the magazine issue itself, but it was sold alongside it). The magazine was one of the biggest in Brazil regarding gaming, and it is used in EarthBound in the reception section. Like #"The 20 best games of all time" - GameOver.gr, I will send it to WP:VG/RS, but I will leave the list here for now.

If approved, Final Fantasy IV will be added to the main page. Skyshifter ^talk 02:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Source would look something like that:

• "Os melhores games de todos os tempos" [The best games of all time]. Super GamePower (in Brazilian Portuguese). No. 82. Brazil: Editora Nova Cultural. January 2001.

Skyshifter ^talk 02:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Nice work. Looks like it passes all criteria, though I'll wait on the RS verdict from others before adding. Phediuk (talk) 06:10, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

• Does this list exclude PC games? 2605:8D80:607:E0DC:E5D2:4844:E360:4DA (talk) 14:14, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

  They are indeed suspiciously absent. The ptwiki entry for the magazine doesn't specify, but it was formed from the merger of two magazines that ptwiki says both focused on Nintendo consoles. I suspect the magazine was console focused which may disqualify it. -- ferret (talk) 16:06, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I've looked at the magazine scans provided and the same issue does include coverage of PC games -- a whole section of the magazine is devoted to them, in fact, including reviews (and this coverage is also advertised on the cover, see the mention of "Monkey Island 4 (PC)".) So, I see no evidence of platform restrictions in the source. Phediuk (talk) 17:51, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The list has Doom, so it likely wasn't excluding PC games. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 04:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

As there were no further objections to the Super GamePower Top 20, and no one has yet objected to its reliability over on WP:VG/RS (or here), I have incorporated the list onto the page, and added an entry for Final Fantasy IV accordingly. I have also added the list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 22:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Visualised data has been updated also. BenSPVE (talk) 19:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

GamesMaster, 1996

Sometimes eligible lists are hiding in plain sight. British magazine GamesMaster did a "Top 100 Games of All Time" list in issue #44, published in 1996. It says it was chosen in consultation with "the elite of publishers and developers from all over the world", meaning it was chosen in similar fashion as the GameSpy and 2021 GamesRadar lists. Reader votes are expressly excluded from the list, being shunted into a separate reader poll. The list also fills all other criteria: it is explicitly about "what's best", per its preamble; it is not bound by any platform/era/genre restrictions; and it's clearly a RS, GamesMaster having been one of the bigger UK games mags in the 90s. So, if there are no objections, I'll go ahead and incorporate it. You may peruse the list for yourself starting on page 74 of the issue here.

GamesMaster, 1996

1. Doom (1993) 2. Command & Conquer 3. Super Mario World 4. Duke Nukem 3D 5. Defender 6. Civilization II 7. Tetris 8. Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 9. Street Fighter II Turbo 10. Super Bomberman 2 11. Elite 12. Tekken 2 13. Virtua Fighter 2 14. Resident Evil (1996) 15. Quake test (I’m assuming this means they tried a prerelease build; will not be counted) 16. Super Mario Kart 17. Tempest 2000 18. Gauntlet 19. Bubble Bobble 20. Bust-a-Move 2 21. Dune II 22. Syndicate (1993) 23. Ridge Racer (1993) 24. Sega Rally Championship 25. Formula One Grand Prix 26. Magic Carpet 27. Magic Carpet 2 28. Donkey Kong Country 29. Monkey Island II: LeChuck’s Revenge 30. Pilotwings 31. Daytona USA 32. Virtua Racing 33. Mercenary 34. International Superstar Soccer Deluxe 35. Mortal Kombat II 36. Sensible World of Soccer 37. Gradius 38. Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness 39. Robotron 2084 40. Micro Machines 2 41. Wipeout 42. Dungeon Master 43. Street Fighter Alpha 44. Destruction Derby 45. Yoshi’s Island 46. Alien Trilogy 47. Wing Commander 48. X-COM: UFO Defense 49. Tekken 50. Fade to Black 51. Return Fire 52. Cannon Fodder 53. Star Trek: The Next Generation – A Final Unity 54. Day of the Tentacle 55. Super Castlevania IV 56. Stonekeep 57. Commando 58. Bug! 59. Flashback 60. Scramble 61. Micro Machines ‘96 62. Hired Guns 63. Galaxian 64. Raiden 65. NHL ‘94 66. Star Wars: TIE Fighter 67. Worms 68. Wings 69. Ecstatica 70. Simcity 2000 71. The Beast Within: A Gabriel Knight Mystery 72. Ultima VII: The Black Gate 73. Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge 74. MiG 29: Soviet Fighter 75. The Dig 76. Way of the Exploding Fist 77. Sonic the Hedgehog 78. Discworld 79. Rainbow Islands 80. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 81. Mortal Kombat (1992) 82. Stargate 83. Punch-Out (arcade) 84. Smash TV 85. Actua Soccer 86. Chuckie Egg 87. The Need for Speed 88. Total NBA 89. PGA European Tour 90. Road Rash (1991) 91. Little Big Adventure 92. Cool Spot 93. Llamatron 94. Killer Instinct 95. Truxton 96. Rock ‘n’ Roll Racing 97. Battlezone (1980) 98. Twisted Metal 99. Super Mario Bros. 3 100. Golden Axe

Should this list be incorporated, Battlezone, Dungeon Master, Ultima VII: The Black Gate, Ridge Racer, Tempest 2000, Virtua Fighter 2, and Worms will all be added to the page. Phediuk (talk) 09:47, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

No reason not to use it, and it'd also be worth checking if they've made others lists that would qualify. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Done. I have also added the GamesMaster list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 08:51, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Visualised data has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 17:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Missing list: GamesMaster's 1994 All-Time Top 100 (issue #21)

In addition to the 1996 list already posted, GamesMaster also did an "All-Time Top 100" in issue #21, September 1994, which I have not been able to find despite a considerable search. The issue itself is scanned right here, but the Top 100, which is in a separate 16-page poster book included with the magazine, has proven elusive. One user over on dormant GamesMaster fan forum bookofthedead.ws apparently scanned the whole book not once, but twice, as evidenced in the first several posts on this page. However, one needs an active account to view the images, and since no one has posted on the forum for almost 2 years, there's no one around to activate new accounts. So, there's no way to see the list. So, I'll ask here: can anyone find this list? Does anyone have it? I tried. Phediuk (talk) 08:00, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I took a look at that forum's staff list, and the admin SeeNoEvil's user profile says they were last online on July 23 this year. I wonder if it would be possible to contact them.--Alexandra^IDV 08:06, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The admin has no contact information of any sort -- at least, not anything someone without an account can view. Phediuk (talk) 04:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

So, I attempted to make an account on bookofthedead.ws to access the 1994 list, and after waiting a couple of days to be activated, I checked today to see that I had been IP banned from the site without any explanation or notification whatsoever, and can't view any pages anymore. Umm, thanks? If anyone else wants to try to make an account there, be my guest. Phediuk (talk) 10:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so I looked around bookofthedead.ws for a bit, and there is a "webmaster" email listed at info@bookofthedead.ws . As a last resort, I've sent a message to that address explaining that I'm trying to access the forum solely to see this specific list; I also linked back to this discussion. Phediuk (talk) 10:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

So, I got in touch with the admin, and they actually unbanned me and activated my account, only for me to discover that most of the images uploaded to the forum are broken due to years of disuse, including the scans of the 1994 GamesMaster list. My only option at this point is to try to contact the user who originally posted the scans (the forum has an "email user" option), but since it was 8 years ago now, I'm not holding out much hope. Phediuk (talk) 19:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah, that's very unfortunate.--Alexandra^IDV 13:22, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Another missing list: Games World's 1995 "Classics: 50 Games Without Equal" (issue #7)

Here's another elusive list I'm going to mention here, for the record, this time from one of GamesMaster's chief competitors, British multi-format magazine Games World. With its issue #7 (January 1995), Games World published a supplementary book titled "Classics: 50 Games Without Equal", which the cover of the issue in question describes as "The best of the very best". Archive.org, as linked, features scans of the whole issue, except for the supplement. Unlike with the GamesMaster example above, I haven't even been able to find a trace of the list elsewhere on the net. All I know is that it evidently exists. Phediuk (talk) 11:56, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Hyper 2018

I found the 2018 issue of Hyper with its greatest games list, issue 269. The list, titled "The 200 Games You Must Play", runs from pages 10 to 35 and from pages 74 to 99. Unfortunately, I am (probably) not allowed to link to the PDF due to uncertainties related to copyright (hopefully, that is not a criterion criterion for source inclusion), but I will say that it was accessible on the website Retro CDN as of this post. Two years ago, an editor attempted to access the article themself. FreeMediaKid$ 06:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how providing a PDF for verification is any different than using scans, as we wouldn't host it and only need the information it provides. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 07:00, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

That's what I thought. I realized the Hyper article mentions FreeSpace 2 and Arkanoid and that after analyzing the other greatest games sources, if this issue were included, the number of listings for each of the games would be brought to the minimum requirement of six. FreeMediaKid$ 15:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I've looked at the Hyper 2018 list before (and have a PDF of the issue), and it seems to go out of its way to not identify itself as a list of best or greatest games. Such framing is not used at any point in the feature. It is merely "games you should play". So, I'm going to say no to this one. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. Phediuk (talk) 17:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, that makes sense. If the purpose of the list is simply a suggestion of which games to play, rather than an objective composition of games and their virtues and influence, then forget it. As I was looking at other sources not yet included in the article that I could use, after paying attention to what the articles were about, I only just noticed that some of them are inappropriate, such as the 1UP "essential games" sources. After frustration with trying to expand the list myself, only to then having to revert, it struck me that the there is not much left to add to the list. It is mostly complete, and perhaps even a potential candidate for a featured list. At this point, my only concern is to find at least one title considered by six sources to be greatest and then add it. You know, that feeling you get when you spend hours on nothing, but you persist because you do not want it to be for nothing. FreeMediaKid$ 19:46, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Phediuk: I know it is not related to this discussion, but are you sure that Polygon does not list Fable II as one of the 500 greatest games? Because I see a Fable 2 on this page of the website, ranked 485th with the right release year and original platform, unless I am thinking of a different game. FreeMediaKid$ 18:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

You're right, and I was mistaken; Fable II is on the list. I have added its entry back to the main page. Nice catch. This is the first game in over a year that someone's noticed we missed using the existing data (I believe the last was Ninja Gaiden for the NES back in June 2021.) I thought for sure we had them all, but nope. Phediuk (talk) 18:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Electronic Fun with Computers & Games, 1984

Bingo. I was wondering if any of the old 80s game magazines had done a best-games list, and sure enough, there's at least one. The cover story for Vol. 2 No. 5 (March 1984) of Electronic Fun with Computers & Games is "The 50 Best Games", in which the EF staff chooses their "all-time favorite games". Although EF's reliability has never been appraised on WP:VG/S, it is frequently cited in articles for games from this era, especially for reviews. I have little doubt it would pass as a RS. The list meets all other criteria too, being staff-chosen, framed as "best games of all time", and not subject to any platform restrictions. The list may be viewed in the scans here, beginning on page 22. The list is unranked and in alphabetical order; I recorded Zombies under its more common title Realm of Impossibility for consistency in the omnibus data.

Electronic Fun with Computers & Games, 1984

Archon: The Light and the Dark Aztec Berzerk Blockade Runner Burgertime Centipede Choplifter David’s Midnight Magic Deadline Demon Attack Donkey Kong Jr. Epidemic Escape from the Mindmaster Forbidden Forest Happy Trails Jumpman Junior The Last Gladiator Micro Surgeon Miner 2049er Missile Command Moondust Monty Plays Scrabble Mouse Trap Ms. Pac-Man Necromancer Operation Whirlwind Pepper II Phaser Patrol Pirate Adventure Pitfall Pole Position Q*bert River Raid Robot Tank Rocky (Colecovision) Shamus Shark! Shark! Space Shuttle (Atari 2600) Spare Change Star Castle Super Action Baseball Swords & Serpents Tennis (Atari 5200) Time Zone Flight Simulator (Timex/Sinclair) Tunnel Runner War Room Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord Zaxxon Realm of Impossibility

No games will be added to the page once this list is incorporated, but hey, it's another list. Phediuk (talk) 13:04, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Any game get to five at least? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 07:01, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Assuming there are no objections to the source, Pole Position will be at five sources following the list's incorporation. Phediuk (talk) 17:43, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

As it's been a few days and there have been no objections, I have incorporated the Electronic Fun list into the main page. I have also added the list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 17:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Visualised data has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 01:08, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Le Monde

A French newspaper of record called Le Monde apparently has its own list of 100 best games, from December 2020. Unfortunately, I cannot determine whether this list is really the newspaper's compilation of the greatest games and the reasoning behind their inclusions, or whether it is just a list of games they recommend, because of a silly paywall. On the surface, though, based on my Google search, it does seem to cover games for any platform from any year. Anyone who has access to the source is welcome to check. FreeMediaKid$ 01:17, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I have seen this list before, and I decided against including it then, and upon revisiting it, my vote is still no. The full list is transcribed in a forum thread here, and, as you can observe, it is not really a list of "best" games so much as a series of mini-lists of games that are grouped for being "interesting" in some way (hence the article being framed as the "100 most interesting" games.) Also, the preamble for the list says outright that only games on platforms from the last 10 years are eligible for inclusion, which means it is platform-restricted. Again, though, thanks for the suggestion. Phediuk (talk) 12:04, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Checklist Spreadsheet error

Hi, not majorly important, but just wanted to point out that the game 999: Nine Persons, Nine Hours, Nine Doors is listed twice in the excel spreadsheet at the top of the page, once as "999: Nine Persons, Nine Hours, Nine Doors" and once as just "Nine Persons, Nine Hours, Nine Doors". I checked and it seems to be because the two lists that it is featured on use these two different spellings. 2A00:23C6:8281:A501:E4B9:C01C:151C:A29E (talk) 18:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi there, thank you for letting me know. I've fixed it. If you happen to find anything else feel free to let me know--that goes for anyone! I've tried my best to limit errors but there are bound to be some with the amount of data. BenSPVE (talk) 23:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

GQ 2013

Apparently, GQ has a list of greatest games from 2013. I compared the magazine's 2013 and 2020 lists. The lists are largely identical, except I identified twelve new games added to the latter. Out of curiosity, I checked the 2018 list currently in use to see whether it had any game not found on either version. It turned out that Bloodborne was one. I would have favored replacing the 2018 list with the 2013 and 2020 versions if not for the fact that the 2018 one lists something the other versions do not. The Wikipedia list itself would remain partly unchanged; no new titles would be added, but most of the twelve games found both there and in the GQ 2013 list would earn another citation. I strongly believe that the magazine will continue to update the list over the coming years, and its current article will soon be outdated. I am thinking that I can proceed to add the 2013 source to this list, no? FreeMediaKid$ 02:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Nice catch. Only eight games are different between the 2013 and 2018 list, with both the list order and writeups being unaltered otherwise. Here's everything not on the 2018 list: 99. The Walking Dead; 97. Phantis; 94. Ghostbusters (1984); 92. Ridiculous Fishing; 91. Dwarf Fortress; 87. Knight Lore; 83. Warioware: Touched; 49. Resident Evil 2 (1998); and 44. Donkey Kong Jr. These won't lead to any additions to the page, and given their small number, I think this situation is best handled by making the 2013 list the main citation and just noting the later deviations in the omnibus data. I will do so shortly. Phediuk (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Omnibus data updated; the GQ list now dated to 2013, and notes the few entries that have been replaced in later updates. Phediuk (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Visualised data has been updated to reflect this also. BenSPVE (talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Persona 5?

Sorry, the best that I can see, Persona 5 should be on this list now, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charizard777 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Persona 5 does not meet the requirements for the list as 6 different publications have not considered it one as of now--only 2. Refer to the FAQ at the top of the page if you'd like to learn about the requirements in more depth. BenSPVE (talk) 01:44, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Understand, thank you very much for the clarification! Charizard777 (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Gamecenter, 2000

Found another one. CNET's affiliated gaming site Gamecenter did a feature on "The Top 40 Games of the Millennium" in January 2000. Gamecenter is already listed as a RS on WP:VG/S, so no problems there. The list is also staff-chosen, explicitly about "the top 40 games of all time--or, more accurately, the best video, computer, and arcade games", and features no restrictions by platform, genre, or era. So, I'm going to incorporate it. The list is unranked, except for Pac-Man, which it declares the best. The list also includes 15 "honorable mentions" at the end, which I guess we'll have to exclude, since they're not officially part of the list.

Gamecenter, 2000

Asteroids Civilization II Combat (Atari 2600) Defender Diablo Donkey Kong Doom (1993) Dragon's Lair Duke Nukem 3D Final Fantasy Microsoft Flight Simulator (1982) Gauntlet Gran Turismo 2 Grim Fandango Half-Life King's Quest The Legend of Zelda Missile Command M.U.L.E. Myst Netrek Pitfall Pong Quake Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Resident Evil 2 (1998) Simcity (1989) Sonic the Hedgehog Space Invaders Star Wars (arcade) Super Mario Bros. System Shock Tetris Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar Virtua Fighter 2 Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness Wing Commander X-COM: UFO Defense Zork Pac-Man

Once this list is incorporated, Combat and Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar will be added to the main page. Phediuk (talk) 07:57, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Done. I have also added the Gamecenter list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 14:07, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Visualised data has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

GameSpot, 2000

I thought there might be another "top games of the millennium"-type list out there, and sure enough, GameSpot's UK branch did a "100 Best Computer Games of the Millennium" list in January 2000. The list was chosen by the GameSpot UK staff in conjunction with freelancers and outside experts on a specially-created newsgroup. The list is not subject to any platform, era, or genre restrictions. It contains a large number of series and multi-game entries, which will not be counted. Many of the entries also discuss a series as a whole even if one entry is singled out as their pick, and many contain links to reviews and news coverage of then-recent entries, even if they're not otherwise discussed on the page. Consequently, I have transcribed the list under the assumption that if an entry's title does not explicitly contain more than one game (e.g., "Myst / Riven"), nor the word "series", then it is meant for an individual game. Also, the entry for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is titled as The Legend of Zelda, but the entry is entirely about Ocarina, so I'm using my discretion here and assuming that's what they meant.

GameSpot, 2000

1. Civilization (series) 2. Doom (1993) 3. Command & Conquer (series) 4. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 5. Championship Manager (series) 6. Microsoft Flight Simulator 7. Simcity (1989) 8. Super Mario World 9. Tomb Raider (series) 10. Ultima (series) 11. Elite 12. Gran Turismo 13. Populous (series) 14. Everquest 15. FIFA (series) 16. Soul Calibur 17. Metal Gear Solid 18. International Cricket Captain (series) 19. Myst / Riven (dual entry) 20. Half-Life 21. Unreal (series) 22. Grim Fandango 23. Dungeon Keeper (series) 24. Age of Empires (series) 25. Final Fantasy VII & VIII (dual entry) 26. Grand Prix 1 & 2 (dual entry) 27. Alien vs. Predator (1999) 28. Alone in the Dark (1992) 29. Marble Madness 30. Goldeneye (1997) 31. TOCA 2 32. Rollercoaster Tycoon 33. Total Annihilation 34. Diablo 35. Warcraft (series) 36. Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe 37. Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 (dual entry) 38. Crash Bandicoot: Warped 39. Tetris 40. Wing Commander (series) 41. Star Wars: TIE Fighter / X-Wing (dual entry) 42. Worms (series) 43. Battlezone (1998) 44. Duke Nukem 3D 45. Baldur’s Gate 46. Close Combat III 47. Rally Championship 48. Mechwarrior (series) 49. Driver 50. Syndicate (series) 51. Starsiege: Tribes 52. Myth (series) 53. Battleground: Waterloo 54. Commandos (series) 55. Descent (series) 56. Zarch / Virus (dual entry) 57. Monkey Island (series) 58. Premier Manager (series) 59. System Shock (series) 60. Grand Theft Auto 61. Ready 2 Rumble Boxing 62. Homeworld 63. Street Fighter II 64. MDK 65. Gabriel Knight (series) 66. Mario Bros. (1983) 67. International Superstar Soccer (series) 68. Euro Fighter 2000 69. Tekken 2 70. Colin McRae Rally 71. X-COM (series) 72. Knight Lore 73. Total Air War 74. Player Manager / Kick Off 1&2 (triple entry) 75. Resident Evil (1996) 76. Magic Carpet (series) 77. Heroes of Might & Magic (series) 78. Dungeon Master 79. Manic Miner / Jet Set Willy (dual entry) 80. Stunt Car Racer 81. Sonic the Hedgehog 82. Dune II 83. F19/117A Stealth Fighter 84. Lords of Midnight 85. Earthworm Jim 86. Midwinter 87. Pac-Man 88. Prince of Persia (series) 89. Cannon Fodder 90. Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis 91. Meridian 59 92. The Hobbit (1982) 93. Carrier Command 94. Lemmings 95. Wipeout (series) 96. VGA Planets 97. Gunship (series) 98. Head over Heels 99. Chessmaster (series) 100. Pong

Once this list is incorporated, Grand Theft Auto will be added to the main page. Phediuk (talk) 23:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't like being a party pooper, but I dislike that this list is labelled "Computer Games" and that it includes numerous series/franchises versus specific games. -- ferret (talk) 23:14, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, just to clear things up, "computer game" is a common British synonym for "video game" regardless of format; it is not meant to be restrictive to personal computers. This list includes console games like Mario, Zelda, Sonic, Crash Bandicoot, Final Fantasy, Tekken, and so on. See also the Yahoo UK list, which uses the term "computer game" in the same way. Also, "series" entries will be excluded, as has been the case in past lists where they've occurred; there are still many entries for individual games. Phediuk (talk) 23:23, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Are you going to use the list or not? Neocorelight (Talk) 05:16, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'll incorporate it shortly. Phediuk (talk) 14:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

As there have been no further objections, I have incorporated the GameSpot list and added it to the omnibus data. No entries titled as "series" or more than one game were counted, and I didn't count the Ocarina entry either due to the aforementioned entry title confusion. Phediuk (talk) 21:54, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Visualised data has also been updated. BenSPVE (talk) 16:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

USA Today, 2022

USA Today published a list called "The 100 best video games of all time, ranked" in their gaming section a few days ago. In addition to USA Today being a RS, the list is explicitly about the best games, and the games are editor-chosen and not subject to any platform/genre/era restrictions. As the list meets all criteria, I'm not seeing any reason not to incorporate it. Here's a transcription:

USA Today

1. Shadow of the Colossus 2. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 3. Metal Gear Solid 4. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 5. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 6. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 7. Minecraft 8. Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver 9. Resident Evil 4 10. Bloodborne 11. Persona 5 12. Disco Elysium 13. God of War (2018) 14. Celeste 15. It Takes Two 16. Resident Evil 2 (2019) 17. Hades 18. Final Fantasy VII 19. Tetris 20. Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty 21. Red Dead Redemption 2 22. Alien: Isolation 23. Doom (2016) 24. Half-Life: Alyx 25. Dark Souls 26. Mass Effect 2 27. League of Legends 28. Super Smash Bros. Melee 29. Xenoblade Chronicles 30. Dragon Age: Origins 31. Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain 32. Dishonored 2 33. FTL: Faster than Light 34. Grand Theft Auto V 35. Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings 36. Stardew Valley 37. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 38. Elden Ring 39. Heroes of Might and Magic III 40. Nier: Automata 41. Super Mario Bros. 3 42. Sonic 3 & Knuckles 43. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening 44. Hitman 3 45. Return of the Obra Dinn 46. Super Mario 64 47. Civilization IV 48. Deathloop 49. XCOM (no game specified; series?) 50. Hollow Knight 51. Need for Speed Underground 2 52. Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos 53. Hotline Miami 54. Papers, Please 55. Fable 56. Thief II: The Metal Age 57. Ori and the Blind Forest 58. The Last of Us Part 1 & 2 (dual entry) 59. Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag 60. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney 61. Resident Evil 7: Biohazard 62. Kirby Super Star 63. Undertale 64. Metroid Dread 65. Suikoden II 66. Outer Wilds 67. Final Fantasy XIV 68. Journey 69. Into the Breach 70. Rocket League 71. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 72. Apex Legends 73. Wii Sports 74. Silent Hill 2 75. World of Warcraft 76. Slay the Spire 77. Subnautica 78. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind 79. Deus Ex 80. Goldeneye (1997) 81. Skies of Arcadia 82. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory 83. Genshin Impact 84. Fallout 3 85. Batman: Arkham Knight 86. Dead Rising 87. Invisible, Inc. 88. Streets of Rage 2 89. Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening 90. Firewatch 91. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 92. Fortnite 93. The Binding of Isaac 94. Crusader Kings III 95. Mega Man 2 96. Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne 97. Battlefield: Bad Company 2 98. Medieval II: Total War 99. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 100. Among Us

If there are no objections, I'll incorporate this list shortly. Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Papers, Please, and Rocket League will all be added to the main page. Phediuk (talk) 07:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

No objections. Which games have reached five entries as a result of this list? Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Should the list be incorporated, Assassins Creed IV: Black Flag, Dishonored 2, Fortnite, Heroes of Might and Magic III, Ori and the Blind Forest, and Skies of Arcadia should be the ones with 5 entries each. I also have no objections to the list. BenSPVE (talk) 20:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

As there were no objections, I incorporated the USA Today list onto the main page. I also added the list to the omnibus data. Phediuk (talk) 00:37, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

EGM Brasil, 2006

This Brazilian magazine list may fit the criteria. The list was published in edition 51 of the magazine, and appears to be editor chosen. It includes PC games, unlike the english EGM magazine. Currently I wasn't able to find a full scan of it, but I'm looking for it. Here's what I was able to get from internet pictures:

EGM Brasil

21. Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence 22. Super Metroid 23. Gran Turismo 24. Soul Calibur 25. God of War 26. Phantasy Star 27. Adventure 28. Galaga 29. Final Fantasy III 30. Winning Eleven 8 31. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 32. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 33. Resident Evil 2 34. Kingdom Hearts 35. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 36. Final Fantasy II 37. Virtua Fighter 38. Counter Strike 39. Gradius 40. Chrono Trigger 41. Tomb Raider 42. Enduro 43. The Sims 44. Double Dragon II 45. The King of Fighters '94 46. Half Life 47. Metroid Prime 48. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Dotoilage (talk) 00:18, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Nice work digging this up. We should get a complete scan of this list before incorporation so we can confirm it is a list of best/greatest games; the title translates as "200 Games That Changed the World", so it's not completely clear. Phediuk (talk) 06:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

List of all current 5-entry video games

Just as a form of helpful reference for when more lists are added in the future to this page, here's a list of all the current 5-list games we have on our spreadsheet that will each go on the list should they get another list entry in the future:

1. A Mind Forever Voyaging
2. Arkanoid
3. Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag
4. Banjo-Kazooie
5. Battlefield 2
6. Borderlands 2
7. California Games
8. Cannon Fodder
9. Cave Story
10. Crazy Taxi
11. Deus Ex: Human Revolution
12. Dishonored 2
13. Earthworm Jim
14. F-Zero
15. Final Fantasy VIII
16. Fire Emblem: Awakening
17. Fortnite
18. Freespace 2
19. Golden Axe
20. Guitar Hero II
21. Head Over Heels
22. Hearthstone
23. Heros of Might & Magic III
24. Kingdom Hearts II
25. Lumines
26. Mass Effect 3
27. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
28. NHL '94
29. Ori and the Blind Forest
30. Outrun 2006: Coast 2 Coast
31. Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
32. Peggle
33. Perfect Dark
34. Pilotwings
35. Pole Position
36. Samurai Shodown
37. Skies of Arcadia
38. Spy Hunter
39. Stunt Car Racer
40. Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
41. Super Monkey Ball
42. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
43. Tekken 2
44. The Sims 3
45. The Witness
46. Theme Park
47. Time Crisis
48. Timesplitters 2
49. Towerfall
50. Vagrant Story
51. Virtua Fighter 5
52. Xenogears

Of course I will try to update this as more games get 5 entries or get their 6th entry and need to be removed from this list.

Eseseso (talk) 17:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Museum of Pop Culture (2019)

The Museum of Pop Culture made a 2019 list of the top 100 games:

Museum of Pop Culture 2019

1. Grand Theft Auto V 2. Super Mario World 3. Space Invaders 4. Minecraft 5. Fallout: New Vegas 6. Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End 7. Borderlands 2 8. Spider-Man (2018) 9. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 10. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 11. Halo: Combat Evolved 12. World of Warcraft 13. Far Cry 3 14. Dragon Age: Inquisition 15. Half-Life 2 16. Crysis 17. Street Fighter II 18. GoldenEye 007 19. Battlefield 1 20. Inside 21. Overwatch 22. Valiant Hearts: The Great War 23. Tetris 24. God of War (2005) / God of War (2018) 25. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 26. Castle Crashers 27. Super Mario Bros. 28. Limbo 29. The Oregon Trail 30. Rocket League 31. We Happy Few 32. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 33. Tomb Raider (1996) / Tomb Raider (2013) 34. Quake 35. Guild Wars 2 36. BioShock 37. Overcooked 38. No Man’s Sky 39. Wolfenstein: The New Order 40. Gears of War 2 41. Dishonored 2 42. The Last of Us 43. Rise of the Tomb Raider 44. Cuphead 45. Forza Motorsport 6 46. Red Dead Redemption 47. Destiny 48. Divinity: Original Sin II 49. Mass Effect 2 50. Mortal Kombat 3 51. Counter-Strike 52. Command & Conquer 53. Horizon: Zero Dawn 54. Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego 55. Assassin’s Creed II 56. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time 57. Deus Ex 58. Final Fantasy IX 59. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2 Ranked As: Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater (Series) 60. Unreal Tournament 61. Firewatch 62. Duke Nukem 3D 63. The Order: 1886 64. Soul Calibur 65. Galaga 66. Need For Speed: Underground 2 67. ReCore 68. X-COM: UFO Defense (AKA UFO: Enemy Unknown) 69. Diablo II 70. Fable 71. StarCraft 72. Dark Souls II 73. Dead Rising 3 74. Donkey Kong 75. Call of Duty 76. NBA 2K3 Ranked As: NBA 2K (Series) 77. Dead Space 78. Titanfall 2 79. Mafia 80. Super Mario Kart 81. Resident Evil 4 82. Batman: Arkham City 83. Gran Turismo 84. Left 4 Dead 2 85. Eve Online 86. EarthBound 87. Diablo 88. Mega Man 3 89. Bloodborne 90. Devil May Cry 91. Hitman 92. SimCity 2000 93. Metroid Prime 94. Star Fox 64 (AKA Star Fox: Lylat Wars) 95. Stardew Valley 96. Ratchet & Clank 97. Microsoft Flight Simulator 98. League of Legends 99. Doom (1993) / Doom (2016) 100. Myst

If this list is accepted, Borderlands 2 and Dishonored 2 will each get their 6th entry. Also, the following games will gain their 5th entry if this list is accepted:

1. Doom (2016) 2. Eve Online 3. Mafia 4. Titanfall 2 5. Call of duty 6. Fable 7. Firewatch 8. Horizon: Zero Dawn 9. Castle Crashers 10. Dragon Age: Inquisition

Eseseso (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the suggestion. There a couple of things to note here. First, MoPOP has few citations on the English Wikipedia, and most of the handful that are there are for images. Its reliability should be evaluated at the talk page at WP:VG/S first, as it is currently uncertain. Second, the list is vague as to whether "top 100" means best or not, saying only that "this list will have something for even the most casual gamer." There should be some indication, somewhere in the list (or even on another page about the list), that this is about best/greatest games, if we are to incorporate it. Thanks again for suggesting this list, though. Phediuk (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

The list itself doesn't fit the criteria, from what I could tell. I found it months ago, but the main thing to note is that it doesn't appear to be editor-chosen, and that the list itself appears to be the writeup of a blog post contributor, rather than an official list from the Museum of Pop Culture itself. For those reasons, I chose not to submit it here because there isn't a sufficient amount of info to suggest that this is an official list akin to the ones by IGN, GamesRadar+, or Slant.Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 00:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I fully understand.

Just curious, is GamingBible a reliable source? Because they also have a list of the 100 best games of all time.

Here is GamingBible's 2020 list:

GamingBible 2020

1. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 2. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 3. Portal 2 4. Minecraft 5. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 6. Grand Theft Auto V 7. The Last of Us 8. Super Mario Galaxy 9. Super Mario Bros. 3 10. Halo 3 11. Tetris 12. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 13. Dark Souls 14. Chrono Trigger 15. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 16. Her Story 17. Batman: Arkham City 18. Metal Gear Solid 19. God of War (2018) 20. Outer Wilds 21. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 22. Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal 23. Bloodborne 24. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas 25. Assassin’s Creed II 26. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe 27. Disco Elysium 28. Super Mario Odyssey 29. Call of Duty: Black Ops 30. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 31. Red Dead Redemption 32. Half-Life 2 33. Overwatch 34. Spider-Man (2018) 35. Resident Evil 4 36. Street Fighter II 37. Celeste 38. Final Fantasy VII 39. Rocket League 40. Prey (2017) 41. BioShock 42. Life Is Strange 43. Into the Breach 44. Tekken 3 45. Titanfall 2 46. Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen 47. Metroid Prime 48. Hades 49. Persona 5 50. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker 51. Pokemon Blue/Red 52. Halo: Combat Evolved 53. Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker 54. The Secret of Monkey Island 55. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 56. Oxenfree 57. Red Dead Redemption 2 58. Dishonored 59. Gears of War 2 60. Silent Hill 2 61. Nier: Automata 62. RuneScape 63. Super Metroid 64. LittleBigPlanet 65. Fable 66. Doom (1993) 67. Super Hexagon 68. The Sims 2 69. Hitman 70. League of Legends 71. Resident Evil 2 (2019) 72. Tomb Raider II 73. Mass Effect 2 74. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2 (Ranked As: Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater (Series)) 75. Ori and the Will of the Wisps 76. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 77. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate 78. Left 4 Dead 2 79. To the Moon 80. Thirty Flights of Loving 81. Total War: Warhammer II 82. Shadow of the Colossus 83. Tom Clancy’s Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 84. Undertale 85. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Ranked As: Guitar Hero (Series)) 86. Dragon Age: Inquisition 87. Fortnite 88. Streets of Rage 2 89. Fire Emblem: Three Houses 90. Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft 91. Animal Crossing: Wild World 92. GoldenEye 007 93. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 94. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess 95. TimeSplitters: Future Perfect 96. Soma 97. Professor Layton and the Curious Village 98. World Series Baseball 99. Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag 100. Dirt Rally

Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, Fortnite, and Hearthstone would all get their 6th list entry, while Mafia, Titanfall 2, Dragon Age: Inquisition, To The Moon, Life is Strange, and Mario Kart 8 would all get their 5th entry

Eseseso (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

GamingBible (and all LadBible sites) are not reliable. -- ferret (talk) 14:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the heads up. Eseseso (talk) 14:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Edge (2007)

Sorry for making yet another proposal, but this time I am certain that it is more reliable, as it is a 2007 list of Edge Magazine that includes some games that the 2000, 2015, and 2017 ones don't have (there were also a 2003 and a 2009 list but those don't fit our guidelines).

Edge 2007

1. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 2. Resident Evil 4 3. Super Mario 64 4. Half-Life 2 5. Super Mario World 6. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 7. Halo: Combat Evolved 8. Final Fantasy XII 9. Tetris 10. Super Metroid 11. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island 12. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 13. Ico 14. Super Mario Kart 15. Pro Evolution Soccer 6 Ranked As: Pro Evolution Soccer (Series) 16. Street Fighter Anniversary Collection Ranked As: Street Fighter II and Street Fighter III 17. GoldenEye 007 18. Final Fantasy VII 19. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 20. Civilization IV 21. Okami 22. World of Warcraft 23. Metroid Prime 24. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time 25. SimCity 2000 26. Advance Wars 27. Rez (AKA Rez Infinite) 28. Perfect Dark 29. Deus Ex 30. Shadow of the Colossus 31. Katamari Damacy 32. Project Gotham Racing 2 33. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 34. R-Type Final 35. Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty 36. Battlefield 2 37. StarCraft 38. Virtua Fighter 5 39. Secret of Mana 40. WarioWare Inc: Mega Microgames! 41. Gran Turismo 4 42. Rome: Total War 43. The Bomberman Series Ranked As: Bomberman, Mega Bomberman (AKA Bomberman 94), Super Bomberman, Super Bomberman 2, and Saturn Bomberman 44. Super Monkey Ball 45. Company of Heroes 46. Quake III Arena 47. Far Cry 48. Puyo Pop Fever 49. Animal Crossing 50. Shenmue 51. Pokemon Ruby / Sapphire 52. Disgaea: Hour of Darkness 53. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2 Ranked As: Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater (Series) 54. Chrono Trigger 55. Counter-Strike 56. Guitar Hero Ranked As: Guitar Hero (Series) 57. Soul Calibur 58. Tempest 2000 59. Star Fox 64 (AKA Star Fox: Lylat Wars) 60. Pac-Man Vs. 61. Manhunt 62. Jet Set Radio Future 63. Lumines 64. System Shock 2 65. Darwinia 66. F-Zero GX 67. Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 68. GTR 2 69. Pilotwings 64 70. Ridge Racer 2 (2006) 71. Ninja Gaiden (2004) 72. Killer 7 73. Bust-A-Move (AKA Puzzle Bobble) 74. Thief: The Dark Project 75. Burnout 2: Point of Impact 76. Ikaruga 77. Football Manager 2007 Ranked As: Championship Manager [1992-2003] / Football Manager [2004-Current] (Series) 78. Doom II 79. The Secret of Monkey Island 80. Virtua Tennis 2 Ranked As: Virtua Tennis (Series) 81. Robotron 2084 82. Lemmings 83. Nights Into Dreams 84. Phantasy Star Online 85. Silent Hill 2 86. OutRun 2 (AKA OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast) 87. Mr. Driller 88. Sega Rally Championship 89. Tomb Raider (1996) 90. Devil May Cry 91. Super Smash Bros. Melee 92. Resident Evil (1996) Ranked As: Resident Evil (1996) / Resident Evil (2002) 93. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door 94. Gitaroo Man 95. God of War 96. Wipeout 97. Tekken 3 98. Sensible Soccer Ranked As: Sensible Soccer (Series) 99. Psychonauts 100. Crackdown

If this list is accepted, then Battlefield 2, Virtua Fighter 5, Lumines, Perfect Dark, and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door all get their 6th entry (and I checked to make sure that the 3 accepted lists don't have them).

~~ Eseseso (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the list, but unfortunately this is partially reader-voted ("as judged by the readers and writers of Edge"). It's been discussed (and excluded) a few times before. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 15:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Shit. Did not know that.

I'm so sorry. Eseseso (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

No stress, it's very easy to miss. Thanks again for the suggestion! – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 15:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022

Please add Metal Gear Solid 4 and Elden Ring to this list. Hishamabd950 (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)