Talk:Lloyd Irvin

The Truth About Lloyd Irvin Lloyd Irvin participated in the gang rape of a 17 year old girl at Hampton University in 1989. He was arrested and charged with rape. He was acquitted due to his testimony that he could not get hard enough to have sex with the victim. Multiple friends of his were convicted of the same rape and sent to prison. Lloyd Irvin fell through the cracks of the legal system in 1989, and there has been a pattern of sexual abuse surrounding him since. Lloyd Irvin has attempted to suppress the information below through SEO tactics, bullying, legal threats, and intimidation. The content of this site is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. This site is supported by a team that is dedicated to standing up to Lloyd Irvin's bully tactics and spreading the truth. This site is intentionally minimalistic to make it easy for anyone to copy its content in its entirety. This site is protected by a team that will not be silenced by frivolous legal threats. Lloyd Irvin Students Arrested in Brutal Rape Two top Lloyd Irvin students (Nicholas Schultz and Matthew Maldonado) were arrested for the violent rape of a female teammate on New Year's Eve 2013. The Lloyd Irvin students beat the victim in and out of consciousness while raping her repeatedly. After the rape, the two Lloyd Irvin students left the victim lying helpless in the church parking garage in which the rape occurred. This incident was captured on surveillance video tape. WJLA Covers Details of Lloyd Irvin Students' Brutal Rape Both Lloyd Irvin students were indicted on nineteen felony counts in the District of Columbia Superior Court. They are facing potential life sentences if convicted. Lloyd Irvin Students Indicted on Nineteen Felony Counts Lloyd Irvin Buys LloydIrvinRape.com to Cover Up Multiple Rapes In a despicable attempt to cover up the news of the New Year's Eve rape, Lloyd Irvin purchased the domain name LloydIrvinRape.com. Lloyd Irvin populated this site with an advertisement for his own rape prevention classes -- a shameless attempt to profit from the brutal rape of his own student. This cover up ignited widespread outrage in the martial arts community. Lloyd Irvin Purchases LloydIrvinRape.com to Cover Up Rapes But what came to light next revealed something far more sinister. Lloyd Irvin was covering up yet another brutal rape. Lloyd Irvin Participated in the 1989 Gang Rape of a 17 Year Old Girl As a result of the outrage from Lloyd Irvin's rape cover up, members of the martial arts community revealed that Lloyd Irvin himself had participated in the 1989 violent gang rape of a 17 year old girl at Hampton University. Lloyd Irvin and as many as nine of his friends lured the girl to their apartment where they threatened to throw her off the balcony if she resisted. They then threw her on the bed and raped her violently. Local News Article Covers Lloyd Irvin's Involvement in Brutal Gang Rape The rape was so brutal that the victim suffered bruising on her lips and vagina. Lloyd Irvin testified that he did not see what was wrong with having sex with a "freak" -- the exact word that he used to describe the victim in court. Neither Lloyd nor any of his friends showed any remorse for this violent crime. Lloyd Irvin Testifies that Rape Victim Is a "Freak" Lloyd Irvin was able to convince the jury that he was too limp to penetrate the victim. He did, however, admit that he wanted to anyway. Due to the inability of the jury to convict him on a lesser charge for his clear involvement in the gang rape, Lloyd Irvin was acquitted. His co defendant was convicted of forcible sodomy. Lloyd Irvin Wants to Rape Victim But Is Too Limp In further trials, several more of Lloyd Irvin's friends were convicted of rape. They were sentenced to prison. Lloyd Irvin Friends Convicted of Rape and Sent to Prison Lloyd Irvin Officially Speaks About His Participation in Brutal Gang Rape After several weeks of silence, Lloyd Irvin officially issued a statement to GRACIEMAG. Lloyd Irvin painted himself as the victim in the situation and claimed that he was only guilty of poor timing and taste. Official Lloyd Irvin Statement on Involvement in 1989 Gang Rape One thing noticeably missing from the statement, although promised within it, is Lloyd Irvin's personal account of his side of the story. However, other statements from Lloyd Irvin's inner circle show exactly what that side is. Lloyd Irvin Black Belt Phil Proctor Calls Rape Victim "Dirty Whore" Prior to the release of the official Lloyd Irvin statement, Lloyd Irvin black belt and inner circle member Phil Proctor made a public statement concerning the incident. In that statement, Phil Proctor referred to the victim's ordeal as "a 'train was run' on a dirty whore that got to feeling guilty." Lloyd Irvin Black Belt Phil Proctor Publicly Calls Rape Victim a "Dirty Whore" This shocking, disgusting statement is an indication of how Lloyd Irvin's inner circle reacted to the news. Taken in conjunction with Lloyd Irvin's own sworn testimony that the victim was a "freak", it becomes clear that Phil Proctor's version of the story is what Lloyd Irvin told his team about the incident privately. From this information, it was obvious that Lloyd Irvin was fostering a culture of rape and sexual abuse on his team. But few could have imagined the terrible extent of the abuse. Top Lloyd Irvin Student Jordon Schultz Reveals Continuing Widespread Lloyd Irvin Sexual Abuse Abruptly, at the end of February 2013, nearly all of Lloyd Irvin's top students left suddenly in the middle of the night. Such a strange exodus caused concern in the martial arts community. An official statement by one of the top students leaving, Jordon Schultz, shed light on the cause. Jordon Schultz Confirms Widespread Lloyd Irvin Sexual Abuse In his statement, Jordon Schultz describes how Lloyd Irvin manipulated and sexually abused a female teammate. Lloyd Irvin ordered her to perform sexual favors, repeat that she loved him, and affirm her desire to obey him to become a world champion. Jordon Schultz also indicated his belief that there were additional victims on the team. Other sources within the team confirmed that Lloyd Irvin indeed gave the same account of his rape case to his team that Phil Proctor repeated publicly. Sources also confirmed that Lloyd Irvin was in fact paying for the legal representation of his two students, Nicholas Schultz and Matthew Maldonado, that brutally raped yet another teammate on New Year's Eve. Lloyd Irvin also attempted to cover up this damning information. Top Lloyd Irvin Student DJ Jackson Indicted for Felony Sexual Abuse Due to the grave nature of the situation, more remaining students left Lloyd Irvin. One of particular note remained: top competitor and children's program chaperone DJ Jackson. At the end of March 2013, it was revealed that in fact DJ Jackson had a history of sexual abuse as well. In 2008 DJ Jackson was indicted in Iowa on one count of felony sexual abuse in the third degree. DJ Jackson pleaded down to a lesser violent misdemeanor (assault causing bodily injury) and was sentenced to a year in jail. DJ Jackson Indicted for Felony Sexual Abuse in the Third Degree Copy of DJ Jackson Criminal Record It appears that DJ Jackson received probation as part of his sentence. However, it appears that he violated the terms of his probation. As a result, he is currently wanted in Iowa by the Sioux County Sheriff in relation to his sexual abuse case. DJ Jackson Actively Wanted in Iowa

Allegation of systemic sexual abuse
This article presents claims of cult like sexual abuse. [] Even though the claims aren't verified, should the fact that Team Lloyd Irvin seems to be falling apart due to allegations be included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.249.84.153 (talk) 11:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * At the moment, I think making the leap to "systematic" and the like would probably violate WP:ORIGINAL and should be avoided. Normally I trust content from bloodyelbow, even for some cites, but this particular article seems pretty sensationalized and, other than the secondhand account by Mr. Schultz, just a rehash of the ongoing. At any rate, content relating directly to Team Lloyd Irvin rather than the man himself should, for the time being, be focused on that particular article, which also isn't a BLP, so the policy considerations are perhaps less sensitive.


 * Interestingly enough, the falling apart you mention is already well showing itself in the Team Lloyd Irvin article, particularly through the removal of de-affliating schools. In the past week, 4 schools have been removed and 17 listed competitors...


 * Perhaps you should make your voice heard on whether or not the team even remains notable enough to warrant an article? Articles_for_deletion/Team_Lloyd_Irvin Buddy23Lee (talk) 20:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Rape
Apparently two of his students were accused of raping a 3rd student in 2012. This seems to have dragged out a 1990 accusation against a "Lloyd Irvin" from 1990 who was acquitted of rape. No reliable sources seem able to confirm they are the same person and the sources so far presented have had their titles altered when placed in the article. This seems to be a BLP issue. --DHeyward (talk) 15:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Finally, the article has been SPP'ed for two weeks to prevent the repeated addition of the contested BLP material while discussion here (or on a relevant noticeboard) establishes consensus as to the source's factual accuracy and relevance to "this Lloyd Irvin".  Salvidrim!    &#9993;  08:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe it has been factually established that there are now multiple allegations of sexual impropriety against Lloyd Irvin himself (not related to the dropped charge in 1989), especially after Jordan Schulz came forward with his recent statement, and ten members of his Medal Chasers team left literally overnight. Even just by themselves, the new allegations that have come out against Irvin warrant mention. I suppose one could argue that it's better to wait until he's been formally indicted by the police to include it in-depth, I don't know. That there is a compounding scandal is very real and establishable though. Beansy (talk) 05:40, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll outline and summarize the main issues as I see them: There only seems to be one original source (http://articles.dailypress.com/) that mentions the case. I get the reason for the limited coverage at the time but, as established, it should not be allowed to stand as the sole source for such defaming allegations. The source itself seems fairly authoritative, though I think it’s odd that they reference Irvin in the actual URL links when he wasn’t even the man convicted. Regardless, even if the original court/police records are destroyed certainly someone from the time should be able to give an interview or something; there must be other sources somewhere. I’ll admit that it does look indeed probable that this Lloyd Irvin is the same ‘Lloyd E. Irvin’ in the article (a simple White Pages/person locator search reveals only three publicly listed Lloyd E. Irvins) but a number of the articles detailing the case are careful to make clear they aren’t sure the Dailypress article is actually referencing the martial arts instructor, which I find troubling. This last factor is what makes me a bit more suspicious about this case than a good many other bios. As a west-coaster, I have no real idea why this is other than to assume that if Irvin’s market share were a lot smaller it would help out competitors in the mid-atlantic states and/or a lot of people dislike his annoying/aggressive marketing. Whatever the reason, it leads to pages like this which I assume are fueled by something other than the moral outrage which might stem from a crime alleged 23 years ago that a jury found he didn’t even commit...Buddy23Lee (talk) 20:51, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Only one source to substantiate allegations
 * Questions regarding which 'Lloyd E. Irvin' is referenced
 * As a somewhat polarizing figure he does have a camp of passionate detractors

How about this? Is this credible enough?

http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/9/42049008/martial-arts-champ-responds-to-rape-allegations-with-internet-marketing-trickery — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.165.210.163 (talk) 22:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Gang Rape Allegations
Why are the charges that were against Lloyd Irvin for Gang Rape not part of this article? Warisart (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * See section above. We need consensus to include it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Lloyd Irvin Confirms Allegations in Official Statement
Lloyd Irvin himself has confirmed that he is indeed the same Lloyd E. Irvin referenced in the articles. A link to his statement confirming this: http://www.graciemag.com/2013/01/official-lloyd-irvin-statement/

In Lloyd Irvin's official statement, he confirms that he was indeed charged with rape in 1989. He gives a firsthand account of a conversation with the prosecutor and his father.

There is no longer any doubt that the rape allegations involve him. Please restore the previous edits. 98.169.85.202 (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In that article from GracieMag he states that the same statement was made to more mainstream sources (if it is an actually letter from him). If you find one of those sources then we may be able to include it. I don't think we should now because all the sources seem too flakey. If mainstream sources don't think it is notable then neither can we.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, and although I'll readily admit his apparent admission renders my above points rather moot, I still don't think it's appropriate content for wikipedia, particularly considering the BLP policy. The article should be kept neutral and encyclopedic, rather than tabloidish. This works both ways, no commercial garbage or self-promotion from Irvin's bombastic organization as well as no defaming content, or what at the very least has the appearance of defaming content. Buddy23Lee (talk) 20:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm attempting to include a more factual approach to this with my current addition. If it still seems in possible violation of BLP policy, by all means remove it. This is just an attempt to come to some sort of compromise in light of the open letter and ongoing edit war. Buddy23Lee (talk) 05:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:BLP notes that we should word biographies conservatively, and not fall prey to becoming a tabloid. Collect (talk) 17:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

This is bullshit. OJ Simpson was acquitted at trial, and there are tons of details of that in his article. Why can't we do the same for Lloyd?Kurzon (talk) 15:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Please reference:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive175 to view some of the policy considerations regarding this. Buddy23Lee (talk) 19:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Violations of BLP policy
I'm removing the 'BLP noticeboard' template from this talk page now that the article's second discussion has dropped off the noticeboard. While I'm not entirely sure there was enough participation either there or on this talk page to unequivocally warrant the designation of "consensus", and with due regard to consensus not numbers, it would still appear that the majority of opinions express reservation and cite a number of policy issues regarding the inclusion of the 'gang rape' content. Perhaps the most relevant of these was the mention of WP:NPF, which I personally believe to be spot on in this particular case. Thus, I remain in the camp of non-inclusion and I believe the burden now lies with those who wish to include it. Without, at the very least, a compelling argument addressing WP:NPF, I believe it should be removed per that policy. Buddy23Lee (talk) 01:37, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * WP:NPF does NOT apply here. Lloyd Irvin is a famous BJJ and MMA instructor and owns a chain of martial arts gyms. UFC Bantamweight Champion Dominick Cruz, Phil Davis, and Brandon Vera were all associated with him up until the last week. He arguably had the most prominent MMA and BJJ teams in the Northeast U.S., and ran one of the top 20 MMA teams in the world (I wouldn't know where to rank his BJJ team but it is quite easily in the top 20 globally as well). Anyone who seriously follows MMA or BJJ knows who he is and he clearly was relevant enough to warrant a Wikipedia page even before the rape allegations (the allegations are multiplying like crazy right at the moment and what's being reported is unbelievably despicable). He is now rapidly becoming notorious for this as well and the rape allegations absolutely warrant mention on his Wikipedia page. I'm actually still trying to catch up on the mountain of stuff coming out about this guy. Citations are not going to be a problem at all. Beansy (talk) 04:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * That isn't the consensus at the moment. I agree that for we well-familiar with the BJJ community Lloyd is someone recognizable, but I doubt that his notability extends much beyond it. One example of this is the lack of mainstream media covering his ongoing issues. The closest to anything mainstream that I can find is Graciemag. Aside from WP:NPF, and aside from all the defamatory potential, most of the ongoing issues likely belong on in the team article. Buddy23Lee (talk) 06:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Stating allegations as fact is defamatory. Listing publicly made allegations as allegation and with proper citations is not. You're also inherently contradicting yourself by claiming he's not enough of a public figure to apply these actions to when his Wikipedia article pre-dates the allegations. If he's famous enough to warrant a Wikipedia biography for pre-existing reasons (namely his success as a coach, competitor, and proprietor of Team Lloyd Irvin), when a significant news story like this breaks, it inherently merits mention. Also the latest allegations are not about his teammates, they are directly about Lloyd Irvin. The fact that this has not been picked up by a "major" news sites is not terribly material. It is being covered by the MMA press, and he is a significant figure in the MMA community. Specifically, Brent Brookhouse broke a major new development for Bloody Elbow several days ago. I personally would wait for more information to come out, as the story is still developing, but if someone adds a section entry it is warranted and should not be deleted as long as there is a valid citation (SBNation sites may not break most of their own news but they are unquestionably valid news sites). Furthermore, if it gets confirmed by a valid news source that he is indeed under investigation by the Prince Georges County Police Department for sexual coercion, that should unquestionably meet any criteria for inclusion in the article space (I've seen this posted several places along with a telephone number for victims to come forward but it hasn't actually been picked up as a news item yet). Beansy (talk) 09:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Well good sir, looks like we'll just have to, for the moment at least, agree to disagree on this one. Firstly, I do agree with the rough consensus found on the noticeboard that this is a strong case for WP:NPF, that Lloyd is relatively unknown outside of a BJJ/MMA subculture but that he is still arguably notable enough for his own article. So even if it appears as a contradiction, it's still part of policy. Secondly, I still assert that, even aside from WP:NPF, high quality secondary sources are important, particularly so with a BLP and particularly with this clearly defaming content. I enjoy bloodyelbow.com and similar blogs but I don't believe they make good sources for this type of content nor do I know what particular agenda they may or may not have in slandering the subject of this article. I suppose we do agree however that the subject should stay off the article for now, if only for WP:NOTNEWSPAPER.

I've approached the BLP noticeboard twice with this content and was told both times it was not appropriate; maybe you should make your case there? You might be a good deal more persuasive than me, and as few people actually see this talk page, it's probably the best place to generate a new consensus if one is to be found. Buddy23Lee (talk) 18:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Bloody Elbows article was run through a lawyer and 90% of Lloyd Irvin's team and former associations have denounced him. If his page is worth being up, those facts are worth putting up. He is a martial arts instructor who works with kids and women. The information is very relevant. You can't on one hand sight him being associated with people like Ryan Hall and JT Torres but fail to mention the fact that both of those people denounced him for his scumbaggery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spitinsk8er (talk • contribs) 19:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

If rape allegations are not valid enough to be included on this page the section about the Home invasion incident should be removed as well seeing as the only source is an interview with Lloyd Irvin himself with no other verifiable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.244.95 (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

So the Team Lloyd Irvin article was merged/deleted right as I was editing it...
And I got stuck with a section someone else wrote that I was cleaning up, and re-wrote it best I could, and added 11 citations to it. Yes it's about the current rape scandal. If anyone wants to use any of it, here it is below in code brackets (anything you want to use, copy from the code). Forgot to sign, sorry. Beansy (talk) 02:12, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice work Beansy. I have no idea how to handle this now that the BLP for Lloyd has merged with the non-BLP Team. Which policies apply? I suppose it's probably time (AGAIN) to bring this back up on the noticeboard and see what the consensus would be. Hopefully we can put this issue to rest soon. Buddy23Lee (talk) 02:33, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This surely has to go in in some form. I appreciate it has to be handled carefully due to the BLP considerations, but I find it bizarre that it is not possible to report his own words regarding a highly controversial incident which is in the news. How about something like: Allegations of rape against two Team Lloyd Irvin members, and then mainly quoting from Irvin's open letter? --Merlinme (talk) 22:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the main reason why I (unsuccessfully) argued against merging the organization article with the BLP - it complicates the policy issue. Your comment is a little unclear however, as the main BLP issues that we've been grappling with the past few months have been those allegations regarding Irvin himself rather than his students. Are you referring to the incident involving Matthew Maldonado and Nicholas Shultz? Buddy23Lee (talk) 18:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As I understand it the detail about his previous brush with the law came out as a result of the allegations against two of his students, and his open letter is written directly in response to those allegations. The allegations against his students should be reported, with his open letter response, as it's clearly significant to his life, as shown by his response and by the response of other people (who've been disassociating themselves with Team Lloyd Irvin). Re: BLP, I can see that reporting a case where someone was found not guilty 20 years ago could be a problem. However reporting the full details of something which is clearly having a massive effect on Lloyd Irvin's life right now seems appropriate, especially if his own response is given appropriate weighting. --Merlinme (talk) 10:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Due to the ongoing BLP issues and the rough consensus found previously on the noticeboard regarding these issues, I think if you're going to add any content that reflects on Irvin himself (and thus, obviously subject to BLP policy) you should bring it up on the noticeboard and see if you can find a new consensus. While I started with a more inclusive opinion regarding this subject, similar to your own, I've been convinced that the vast majority of this twisted tale is not suitable for a neutral, encyclopedic article. I also find it troubling that one of few major news outlets covering the case doesn't even mention the team or the instructor by name, causing me to question how much of a link Irvin should even have to the actions of his adult students perpetrated outside of his school. Nonetheless, you may be right, it may be time for a change. Buddy23Lee (talk) 19:42, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, I'm going to have a go at raising this again at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. It seems ridiculous to me that the most important event in Lloyd Irvin's life right now is not even mentioned in his Wikipedia article. --Merlinme (talk) 16:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

New discussion at BLP noticeboard
--Merlinme (talk) 17:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't see it there at this date. This article as it stands on Oct 17 2013 omits so much as to be of negative value to a reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.184.222 (talk) 00:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Rape allegations (again)
Is there a form of words and references which people think is appropriate to include in the article? As is documented I think there should be some mention, however I was unable to get consensus for my wording previously. I've just deleted a version which went a lot further than I did. What should we add, if anything? --Merlinme (talk) 10:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Which words and references did you have in mind?Kurzon (talk) 10:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm open to suggestions. But we can't use a facebook reference, and there is no current consensus for relying almost exclusively on bloodyelbow, which is not an especially reliable source. I previously tried to get some support for adding detail based on Irvin's words (from his public statements).--Merlinme (talk) 10:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-12-07/news/ufc-trainer-lloyd-irvin-cult/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.244.95 (talk) 23:06, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, that looks like a good article from a reputable newspaper: "The paper has won more than seventy first-place awards for editorial excellence, statewide and nationally". It has an editor, a managing editor, and a proofreader: . It's a long article, I'll see if I can come up with a suggested edit. We have to be careful not to unbalance a short article, especially a biography, and especially based only on one source. --Merlinme (talk) 09:10, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm the first editor to have tried to add this content to the article (with an admittedly inferior source) and the first to have been told no per the consensus at the bio noticeboard, so please make sure that the new edit passes muster with the board first. I'm still concerned about WP:NPF and other policy issues, but I agree that a better source does look promising. If we can just find a consensus ahead of time, we'll prevent a ton of headache (as I know you're well aware Merlinme. :) Buddy23Lee (talk) 19:52, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The referenced NPF policy currently says: "include only material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources... Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there are additional protections for subjects who are not public figures." I certainly don't think Lloyd Irvin would have got a six page article in the miaminewtimes if it weren't for the controversy, so I think that part's fine. The reputational issues are however relevant. I still think it should be possible to add something, but I agree consensus should be achieved first. I will have a go when I have time; I'm fairly busy this week but I will try to sort something out in the next seven days. --Merlinme (talk) 09:03, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd be happy to help craft up something, but since my previous two (and rather conservative, mind you) attempts failed, I doubt I'd be able to do any better this time. You're more a wordsmith than I am anyway. Buddy23Lee (talk) 21:24, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Suggested text
Ok, I didn't actually think Spitinsk8er's edit was that bad, but I've modified it somewhat, and in any case I think we should get consensus first. Please feel free to suggest alterations.

Sexual allegations controversy
Following allegations of rape by two of his students against a third student on New Year's Eve 2011 Irvin received a lot of negative publicity in the mixed martial arts press. Several of his best students decided to leave, and Irvin disbanded his affiliate program, citing the "lynch mob" mentality of his attackers. The two accused students were found not guilty of all charges in November 2013. A 5 Dec 2013 article on the controversy with accounts from former Lloyd Irvin associates and students claimed Irvin was training his team in a cult like environment. --Merlinme (talk) 14:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Not to be the eternal contrarian here, but with this paragraph being about the same length of his entire stubby article, might not this be a bit WP:UNDUE? We have just one ostensibly valid source mentioning the dramatic stuff and many other sources documenting that he's a nominally notable martial arts instructor. Once again, plenty of the latter are less robust sources, yet free of the BLP issues. I guess the question I'm left with is, can this material (if deemed acceptable to BLP policy) be added in a way that gives balance to the article as a whole but is still made meaningful? Parsing the paragraph above is an obvious route, but perhaps less obviously is a similar expansion of the rest of Irvin's article. Just a thought. Buddy23Lee (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I've pruned the text slightly, I'm not sure I can prune it any more and still get the full context. It would be better if the article weren't too dominated by the controversy, however to the extent that someone is known for a controversy I think it's reasonable to report that controversy. See, for example, another BLP article I'm familiar with, Johann Hari. Hari was known before his controversy as a promising young journalist, however he's probably better known now as the guy who made stuff up, and the article reflects that, with about half the article devoted to the controversy. I don't have any particular objection if you want to expand the rest of the Irvin article with, for example, more details of his team's undoubted successes in competition, but I don't think the controversy should be left out completely simply because the rest of the article is quite short.
 * Are you happy for me to raise this text on the BLP notice board? --Merlinme (talk) 12:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * On the specific issue of due weight, Irvin's article at bjjheroes.com now devotes a bit over a third of the text to the controversy, which seems about right to me. --Merlinme (talk) 12:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For sure - let's test it on the noticeboard and get some forward direction. I see your point with bjjheroes. As much as I love that site we both know it isn't the wiki and doesn't have these myriad policy issues. That said, I'm not trying to derail or anything with WP:UNDUE, just raising a point that I think needs to be considered for this addition. I'm guessing if we submit something to the noticeboard that appears article dominating anyway, someone there will raise the concern on their own. Just sayin. Buddy23Lee (talk) 01:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * BLP Noticeboard entry: . --Merlinme (talk) 09:41, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit has been made based on BLPN feedback. --Merlinme (talk) 09:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

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