Talk:Loki (Marvel Cinematic Universe)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Article title

@*Treker:, I think we already resolved this question with Thor (Marvel Cinematic Universe), which merely has a hatnote to Thor (film). BD2412 T 00:48, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that change that it would be more fitting to have the more clear disambiguation on this page.★Trekker (talk) 12:11, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps this is something better sorted out when the planned TV series actually materializes. It hasn't aired an episode yet, and there is no certainty whether Disney+ will even last to that point. BD2412 T 13:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Treker. Needless semi-ambiguous title for no real reason. --Gonnym (talk) 14:11, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

You are welcome to file a move request at Wikipedia:Requested moves. BD2412 T 13:44, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Frost Giant

The Category:Marvel Comics giants is used on this page because Loki is literally a Frost Giant. As stated in the article, we learned in the first Thor movie that he was born a Frost Giant and abandoned as an infant by his biological father Laufey, only to be found and raised by Odin. So the category is defining, because it describes what the character literally is. Similarly, the category is also used on the article for Loki (comics), so it makes sense for it to also be on the page for his MCU counterpart. Both the previous editors who were unsure about this category addition agreed it should remain on the page after I explained my reasoning (view the discussions here and here), so it is clearly an appropriate category.The Editor 155 (talk) 18:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

The category Category:Marvel Comics Asgardians is also used, because although Loki is a Frost Giant, the category is used for all beings from Asgard. For instance, Dwarves (Marvel Comics), Elves (Marvel Comics), Fenris Wolf (Marvel Comics), Hugin and Munin (Marvel Comics), are all categorised as Category:Marvel Comics Asgardians, despite not belonging to the actual Asgardian race which characters like Thor, Odin, and Sif belong to.The Editor 155 (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Importance of 2012 variant

@IronManCap: So the original Loki and 2012 variant Loki both have the same past up to 2012. Both were D.B. Cooper, and both went through Thor and The Avengers. With the Loki series, the 2012 variant Loki has gotten more screen time than the original Loki ever did. I believe it would be better to have both the original Loki and 2012 variant Loki listed under the Fictional character biography section, branding out after the description of The Avengers, with Sylvie and the other variants being listed in an "Other variants" section, as none of them went through the events of any off the films, Sylvie's divergence point on the "Sacred Timeline" having happened as a child. 94.237.76.31 (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

This version of Loki only exists as a result of the events of Endgame though, so it doesn't make much sense in my opinion to put him before the events of Dark World etc. The 2012 variant section even begins with a description of events from Endgame. We should also consider real-world perspective when arranging these plots, particularly when projects were released. Even then, this 2012 Loki is not in an alternate timeline like it was thought to be, but rather travelling through time as an alternate version of Loki. I think it's important to distinguish these alternate versions from the main, original Loki, who is dead. IronManCap (talk) 15:48, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that some of what the IP is proposing could be done, which is not listing the main variant with the rest. Perhaps the variant could have his own section, and then an "Other variants" section that talks about Sylvie and the other three (or four?) seen so far. As there is hardly any info on these other ones, we could do with just one section talking mainly about Sylvie and just giving a passing mention to the others. After the next two episodes, we can decide if we give each of them a subsection. —El Millo (talk) 16:07, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that would just unecessarily overcomplicate things. The 2012 variant, Sylvie, and the four other variants are all alternate versions of the character. There is no need to split off the 2012 variant's section from the other ones. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@InfiniteNexus: The first three segments, Origins, First betrayal of Asgard, and Attacking Earth, all apply to the original variant Loki and the 2012 variant Loki, who would be a much more notable variant than any of the other variants listed other than Sylvie. Their pasts are identical up to that point, while Sylvie's and the other variants would be vastly different. With the next two episodes and in-development second season, I would agree with what Facu-el Millo was saying. 94.237.76.31 (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Category:Fictional kings

@Richiekim: per WP:NONDEF: A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people), type of location or region (in the case of places), etc. This clearly doesn't apply to Loki being interim king in replacement of Odin during Thor, and it doesn't apply to him posing as Odin to act as king. —El Millo (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo: I disagree, if we're going by that definition, we should remove the fictional kings cat from the MCU Thor article, since his reign as king is barely touched upon in the MCU films. Loki has done more as king on the throne of Asgard in the MCU than Thor has, in the three Thor films, especially in the first film where he is King of Asgard for a good part of the film, see here - Richiekim (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, let's keep it. This discussion has the potential of turning into something big that could affect other articles and it doesn't seem worth the effort, and he was indeed king, so I'm fine with it. —El Millo (talk) 01:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

He also mentioned in IW that he is the 'rightful king of Jotunheim', does that count for anything? Macadamia of the LeafWings | HEAR ME ROAR!! | Contribs | My Guestbook📖 11:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that was adequately addressed with Special:Diff/1027900497. IronManCap (talk) 12:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. BD2412 T 18:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Slightly misleading reference

The first line of the article states that this Loki is based on "the Norse mythological god of the same name.". This is slightly misleading since the god is not actually named "Loki Laufeyson". Maybe the line should be changed to "the Norse mythological god of nearly the same name." or something to that effect. --88.90.166.164 (talk) 02:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• I think it is generally understandable that the god "of the same name" means Loki, the title of the article. BD2412 T 02:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Understandable. Have a nice day. – ChannelSpider (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Question

Why is the picture of Loki at the SDCC 2013 used instead of in-universe one? Other characters have their in-universe picture. Seaweed Brain1993 (talk) 16:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Seaweed Brain1993: Because the image is freely-licensed, and shows his costume and appearance well. Per WP:NFCCP, nonfree images (like the other characters' images) can only be used if they are not replaceable with a freely-licensed version. --IronManCap (talk) 16:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok understood Seaweed Brain1993 (talk) 16:22, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

What If...? and Loki

I think the section describing the Variants from Loki fits quite well, it's a lot of information that diverges from the Fictional character biography, so I agree that should be separate. In regards to What If...?, however, I believe we should follow the leads of the articles for Peggy Carter, T'Challa, Peter Quill, and Nick Fury, and put the What If...? stories at the bottom of Loki's Fictional character biography section. Alternatively, if that's not agreed upon, I do think that the section with the events and characters from Loki should be separate, and a new section should be made for What If...?. As it stands now, I think it fits best in the FCB section. RobotGoggles (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

This content was created by User:Gggiann, here, and was worked on within that section by User:IronManCap and User:Davefelmer. You do not have consensus to move it to the main bio section. You should at least self-revert until consensus is achieved. BD2412 T 19:12, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Your logic is incoherent. Have you not read WP:BOLD? Also, according to WP:BRD, I reverted your edit, where you moved my edits down to the section on Loki. I reverted it, and then started a discussion to gain consensus. The fact that other users were editing the section before me is not an argument against my edits, as Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and my edit to move the What If...? information to the Fictional character biography improves readability and structure, it doesn't take away from it. It's almost like you haven't read my actual argument in the beginning of this discussion. RobotGoggles (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Good point. I have reverted the page back to the last edit before the dispute arose. BD2412 T 19:30, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

No, you didn't. The edit before the dispute arose was my edit. The dispute occurred after that, when you moved my edit down to the Loki section. I'm reverting until we reach consensus. RobotGoggles (talk) 19:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

As established at the simultaneous WP:MCU discussion, "variants" is a specific terminology for versions of Loki in the eponymous series that have somehow deviated from the main timeline, so What If...? versions of characters should not be classed as such. However, in hindsight it seems somewhat WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to dedicate a whole section to a depiction of a character in a single episode, so perhaps renaming the whole other versions sections "alternate versions" and renaming the bulleted list "other versions" would work best, allowing us to cover necessary detail about What If...? Loki in a bullet point. IronManCap (talk) 19:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that the edits that you and the others who contributed to this page made to the Loki variants section are very good and encyclopedic, and I think it should be preserved, as it details the events of the show Loki. and details the variants within. I don't think What If...? would fit there. RobotGoggles (talk) 19:49, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Even if its officially classified as "Variant" in-universe. – ChannelSpider (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I think the character arc and worldbuilding established in Loki is extensive and detailed enough to require its own dedicated section, that's why I added the definitions of what a "nexus event" and "variant" are under the Loki header, my entire argument is that What If...? and its continuity belongs in a separate section to Loki, and per the other characters in What If...?, it should be the Fictional character biography. RobotGoggles (talk) 19:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

What we could do, for the sake of establishing a MoS, is go through each What If...? character's articles and convert their What If...? sections into Level 1 headers. This would fit the established order on this article. My main reason for opposing a section titled "Alternative versions" is that the events of Loki are so extensive and detailed, they are practically a new character biography. So, it follows that Loki, the show, would get a dedicated Level 1 section in the Loki article. With that reasoning in mind, it wouldn't be too disruptive to make What If...? sections in the same light, the same MoS. Whatever we do here, we should apply retroactively to the other articles impacted by this show, for consistency. My only objection is the inclusion of What If...? in the same section as the events and characters of Loki. RobotGoggles (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

If both are presented as alternatives to the main timeline Loki, then there should be no confusion. Loki as a character does not exist in a vacuum, but as an element of the MCU, which is primarily defined by the collection of over two dozen theatrical films. BD2412 T 20:34, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I added an interceding header for the Loki TV series. How is that? BD2412 T 20:36, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

 Works for me. — ChannelSpider (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

That works a lot better. RobotGoggles (talk) 21:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2021

Please change Loki’s significant other from Sylvie to mobius Alana03 (talk) 01:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

No. Because his significant other isn't Mobius. Stop being disruptive. – ChannelSpider (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

RFC about Significant other

Should Loki and Sylvie be listed as significant others? JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 21:42, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

• No The significant other box is for characters in actual relationships. While Loki and Sylvie might both clearly have feelings for each other, they haven't even said it out loud, let alone enter an official relationship. This can be discussed again in the future if things change in season 2, but as of now they definitely do not qualify as significant others. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 21:46, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
• No - and I for one am getting pretty effing tired of a lot of the crufty, fan-shipping nonsense that seems to permeate a lot of these articles. We - and this goes for the wiki as well - are not here to detail every nuance of ANY subject of our articles. I shouldn't have to remind anyone of this; its why there are so many definitions as to what NOR and NOT is. Our job is to offer the general - and hopefully truthful - view of the subject, and provide avenues for the reader to explore. Anything more than that betrays the Five Pillars. 'Nuff said. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:05, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

No. Pretty much what JDDJS said. If in season 2 or onwards something changes, then this can be revisited, but per season 1 they are not in any relationship. Gonnym (talk) 02:01, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

No – having romantic moments ≠ being in a relationship. There is no indication that the two characters are doing anything as a romantic couple. RunningTiger123 (talk) 04:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

No - an interest has kinda been teased, but is not official. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 05:09, 30 January 2022 (UTC)