Talk:Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash

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I have just modified 10 external links on Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018033852/http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2011/09/12/khls-lokomotiv-wont-play-this-season/ to http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2011/09/12/khls-lokomotiv-wont-play-this-season/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111026112440/http://rt.com/sport/hockey/lokomotiv-tragedy-yak-42-human-factor-199/ to http://rt.com/sport/hockey/lokomotiv-tragedy-yak-42-human-factor-199/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110923151103/http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html to http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110923151103/http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html to http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110923151103/http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html to http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928052617/http://www.ceskapozice.cz/en/news/society/transcript-reveals-new-details-lokomotiv-yaroslavl-crash to http://www.ceskapozice.cz/en/news/society/transcript-reveals-new-details-lokomotiv-yaroslavl-crash
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110923151103/http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html to http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110923151103/http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html to http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html
 * Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/69RwSgXzG?url=http://www.mchs.gov.ru/emergency/detail.php?ID=509641 to http://www.mchs.gov.ru/emergency/detail.php?ID=509641
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110923151103/http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html to http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2011/yak-42_ra-42434.html

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:20, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Crash site
There is claim in the accident section that the aircraft crashed around 2km beyond the end of the runway. That’s simply not true. If you look at the airport and crash site on satelite image site or on a map, you can easily see that the distance between the two is much less. It’s only about 800 metres. That’s about 2000 feet, not 2000 metres.Tvx1 03:50, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Proposed move Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash to Yak-Service Flight 9633
Support: As per similar articles, whenever there is a flight number available, a title with the flight number in it is always preferred over any other title. --Undescribed (talk) 03:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Is that preferred over a common name? Alaney2k (talk) 17:08, 9 April 2018 (UTC)


 * By the way, where did you get a flight number for a charter flight such as this. I would think flight number was for a regularly-scheduled flight. In above text, there was no flight number when they were discussing the title. Alaney2k (talk) 17:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Like I said before, it is preferred over a common name whenever there is a flight number available. For example, with military aircraft accidents such as the 2011 Royal Moroccan Air Force C-130 crash, there is no flight number available, and you can clearly see that here. However, with this incident the flight number is clearly mentioned in this source here. It is also in the very first sentence of the article: On 7 September 2011, Yak-Service Flight 9633, a Yakovlev Yak-42 carrying the players and coaching staff of the Lokomotiv Yaroslavl professional ice hockey team, crashed near the Russian city of Yaroslavl. --Undescribed (talk) 18:03, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I went to the WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force page, the exception is to use a common name over a flight number. Alaney2k (talk) 21:09, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is what it looks like it says. So do we need to wait for WP:3O to move the page? Undescribed (talk) 02:58, 10 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Should be moved back to the common name. -DJSasso (talk) 11:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It was premature. I reverted the move, but we need to be responsible and determine if the article title is -the- common name in English. You are experienced in determining that, right? Alaney2k (talk) 14:31, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah we could take a look through articles and see if that is the common name. I feel like there was a move discussion in the past which might shed some light. I will look through the talk page archives. -DJSasso (talk) 14:46, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * There was this move discussion to be moved to the similar title and it was pretty soundly rejected. Talk:Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash/Archive 1. Apparently I was pretty involved in that discussion so I wouldn't want to claim to be an outside uninvolved party to be clear, but I can certainly help form an opinion. -DJSasso (talk) 14:48, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

The move that was being discussed in that archive involved a title which included the type of aircraft, not the flight number. In this particular situation, a title with the aircraft type is definitely not the common name. This is a whole different issue.Undescribed (talk) 16:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * So is an article title of Yak-Service Flight 9633. It's not the common name. Yes, redirects can supply searches to go to the flight name article, but policy of Wiki of a whole is higher than a project. I've seen it referred to in the news media as 'Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash', but I have never seen it referred to in the news media by flight number. It could be that in other languages, but I've not seen that in English. Alaney2k (talk) 18:10, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I never said that it was the common name. Actually, I was stating the opposite. Anyways, you could say that it all comes down to preference as to whether to go by WP:UCRN or WP:NDESC. Undescribed (talk) 01:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The crash is especially notable because of the hockey team. It wiped out an entire professional team in one of the top leagues of the world. The flight number title is completely, thoroughly, utterly, quite meaningless in comparison. (just in case I wasn't clear :-) ) So there is a big difference. It's not a toss-up as to which is a more descriptive and fitting title. I would definitely not change it. The television series Mayday is an accurate barometer of this. They did not give the episode on this crash a title based on the flight number, they called it the "Lokomotiv hockey team disaster." The essential point being the mention of the hockey team. There are several thousand mentions of "Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash". If you start typing in "loko" on Google, the first suggested search is "lokomotiv yaroslavl plane crash'. Alaney2k (talk) 05:16, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Alaney2k here, the major portion of the notability here is the hockey team. And his example of the the Mayday episode is a good one. I think WP:COMMONNAME here definitely applies in this case. And the came as it currently is, is already neutral and descriptive of the situation so WP:NDESC isn't an issue either. -DJSasso (talk) 13:04, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Oppose For the reasons stated by Alaney2k and Djsasso - the notoriety of the loss of the entire hockey team's roster, combined with the fact that it wasn't a regularly scheduled flight (and a flight number that barely appears in reportage) suggests keeping the article name as is. Echoedmyron (talk) 13:23, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Request for clarification
In the section Investigation, there is info added that says, "...it was determined the movement was only possible by pushing down on the brake pedals from the chief pilot's seat to push upwards on the control column. The investigating committee found evidence of the braking failure in the braking system." (added by @Alaney2k on 2011 October 26‎ at 13:02)

It isn't clear what pushing down "to push upwards" means. It seems to mean that the only way to push upwards on the control column is to push downwards on the brake pedals, but that doesn't seem likely.

Also, the reference to finding "_the_ braking failure" seems wrong in that there is no previous mention of any brake failure.

Thanks! WesT (talk) 20:07, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Late reply, but I agree with you. This paragraph doesn’t make sense. It appears to result from a poor machine translation of the Russia source. I have found a live link to the document here, but it’s still only in Russian and I don’t speak the language.Tvx1 09:56, 27 August 2022 (UTC)