Talk:London Swinton Circle

Springbok Club
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/23/thomas-mair-slow-burning-hatred-led-to-jo-cox-murder

http://www.springbk.org.uk/lsc5.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.245.234.84 (talk) 20:51, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

anonymous comment
This Wikipedia entry is a disgrace. It is nothing more than a one-sided catelogue of lies and personal abuse undoubtedly posted by one of two disgrunted expelled members of the organisation (Messrs. Allan Robertson and Daniel Wilkinson) who were expelled for gross misconduct at the beginning of 2009. Wikipedia should either remove this item or allow it to be edited so that it contains the truth immediately. 91.111.111.39 (talk) 13:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC) Alan Harvey, Chairman, the Swinton Circle - 21st March 2010.

On 9 March 2008 I added a highly-relevant section on accusations of Far-Right Extremism in the Swinton Circle. These facts, taken from the New Statesman are of importance to anybody seeking to research this organisation.

On 11 March 2008 anonymous user 81.79.110.48 blanked this information explaining that this was "Deleting obsolete" information.

I would like an explanation of what looks suspiciously like politically-motivated vandalism. Mark Hasker (talk) 07:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Can anybody update the current Chair of the Swinton Circle? Former Chair Sean Pearson resigned some months ago and the most recent Chair was stated to be the former National Front activist Alan Harvey. 84.252.193.24 (talk) 09:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Chair of Swinton Circle - Mr Alan Harvey (AliCatHun)
This article has once again been subjected to vicious vandalism, and now contains a number of potentially libellous lies. I, Alan Harvey, remain Chairman of the Swinton Circle, having been re-elected at the AGM of the organisation held in February 2010. I therefore request that this article either be unprotected or else deleted entirely immediately.

The accusations of "Far-Right Extremism" were deleted because they contained a number of easily disprovable lies - particularly the most bizarre and ridiculous claim that the late Bill Binding (who although a loyal member of the Swinton Circle never held any office in the organisation, and who sadly died last year) was a member of the Ku Klux Klan! Everyone who knew Bill - a long-standing stalwart of the Hackney Conservative Association - knows just what a lunatic lie this is!

Sean Pearson was elected Chairman of the Swinton Circle two years ago - but unfortunately had to withdraw from active membership a few months ago for personal reasons. He remains officially the Chairman of the organisation however. He is an active member of the Greenwich Conservative Association, and indeed stood for the Conservative Party at the last municipal elections. There is therefore absolutely no truth whatsoever in the smear that he has "defected" to the neo-fascist BNP. The Swinton Circle, furthermore, has a ruling barring supporters of extremist organisations such as the BNP from being members of the movement - indeed one individual was expelled after his association with the BNP was confirmed at the end of 2007. I myself was elected Vice-Chairman of the Swinton Circle at the same time as Sean Pearson was elected Chairman. We remain good and close colleagues. I took over as temporary Chairman when Sean Pearson was forced to stand down, but I have vowed to hand the position back to Sean again when he is in a position to resume his responsibilities. Although their is a grain of truth in the allegation that I was once a member of the National Front, this was way back in 1974/75 (i.e. over a third of a century ago!) and only lasted for 15 months! I was very young and extremely politically naive at the time, and indeed only just out of short-trousers. It should furthermore be noted that the NF was still a democratic party under the leadership of former Conservative Councillor John Kingsley Read at that time, and I resigned along with most other pro-democratic members of the party when the Tyndall/Griffin neo-fascist faction seized control at the end of 1975. I have, furthermore, been a keen and active member of the North Thanet Conservative Association since 1994 (i.e. 10 times as long as his youthful dalliance with the NF!), am a staunch lifelong supporter and admirer of the State of Israel, and have publicly called for the BNP to be banned!

Alan Harvey (AliCatHun) -  18th March 2008  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.210.37 (talk) 20:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Continuing Vandalism
After a stimulating debate Wikipedians reached a consensus to keep this article in its present revised form. Yet, once again, the article is being subjected to vandalism by an anonymous editor who has also vandalized the article on the Springbok Club.

If this person has anything worthwhile to say, I suggest he states his case here. Mark Hasker (talk) 18:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems that we are returning to the edit warring as before: an anonymous dynamic IP editor seems intent on deleting certain info. I see there has even been an edit by AlanHarvey, the name of the person expelled from this group, with the same edit as the anonymous dynamic IP editor, could they be the same person one wonders? --JHumphries (talk) 19:42, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Chairman
It is my understanding from various websites the Chair has reverted to Allan Robertson. Whilst this group was undoubtedly chaired for a while by alan Harvey of the Springbok Club he quite clearly appears to have been removed as chairman as per references, following some sort of dispute which was even noted in the The Guardian newspaper as is referenced. Curiously, the anonymous vandalism seems to be targetting the matter relating to Alan Harvey - I suppose we must draw our own conclusions. I gather from various websites that there seems to be some sort of personal dispute about the matter, but is that a matter for wikipedia?

The "smear" which Alan Harvey refers to above appears to have been proved to be in fact correct following the recent leak of the BNP membership list. I accept that "good and close colleagues" do not always tell each other everything but surely Alan Harvey's statement that BNP members are or were barred would therefore seem to be open to question?

--Utinomen (talk) 17:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I have just returned from an extended sailing trip with limited access to the internet and there appear to have been some very interesting developments re The Swinton Circle. As Utinomen implies the so-called "smear" has indeed proved true and Alan Harvey must have known it was true. My information is that he was expelled from the Swinton Circle following appalling conduct at a meeting and that he has now set up a breakaway group called "The Real Swinton Circle", made up of the membership of the apartheid-supporting Springbok Club.Mark Hasker (talk) 20:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In response to, I have removed the section alleging Harvey's replacement as chairman. None of the references to the organisation's official site supported the assertions made, and the other references were to a news blog, which runs the risk of falling afoul of WP:V as a questionable source. If this is to be restored, it should have more substantial and robust references, in light of BLP. The removed section also engaged in synthesis (describing a supposed irony), which should be avoided per WP:OR. - Mark 12:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Move to Swinton Circle?
Since Swinton Circle is a proper name, under the WP:Manual of Style it would be more logical to have the article under that name, rather than the current name, Swinton circle. Would anyone object to the article being renamed? 22:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

No. --JHumphries (talk) 22:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Dispute: Templates added July 2009
There seems to be a dispute within this organisation. As Utinomen and Mark Hasker note above Alan Harvey was expelled from the Swinton Circle in 2008; however, it appears that Harvey then set up his own Swinton Circle in 2009 and expelled everyone else in return! This seems to have led to a continuing back and forth editing by anonymous editors trying to make this article relate to 'their circle'; in particular vis a vis their websites. It appears that Harvey's website is the '.co.uk' one and the Swinton Circle which expelled him is the '.org.uk' website. The '91.etc ' anonymous editor has also recently added a paragraph which I have flagged up which from its content and because it appears on the '.co.uk' website would likely indicate that it is from Alan Harvey or someone operating in his favour. Whilst, from what I can see, most editors seems to favour the '.org.uk' website I deleted the links to any website as I did not feel that I could adjudicate on the matter.

Should the dispute be reflected in the article, in which case who will write it as presumably each party might disagree with it? This article was semi protected on 16 January because of this “Edit warring by a dynamic IP” - does it need to protected again? --JHumphries (talk) 22:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I have restored the 'external link' to swintoncircle.org.uk as based on the evidence it's indisputably the website of the subject of this article. I can't see what there is to 'adjudicate' and I don't think that is something we necessarily should be doing anyway, surely wiki editors must simply note 'what is'? --Utinomen (talk) 16:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Expulsion of Harvey
I have recently been sent two hard copy LSC bulltins containing matter that is kept off the website. They confirm that Harvey was removed as Chair and expelled from the LSC. Member who are still receiving mailshots from him are requested to write to ask him to desist.

The official website does contain the following paragraph, however.

http://swintoncircle.org.uk/1.html

N.B.: The London Swinton Circle is not associated or affiliated with "The Springbok Club", nor does the Swinton Circle hold joint meetings with "The Springbok Club".Mark Hasker (talk) 11:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think any of this is disputed, what seems to be the issue is that of Harvey setting up his own circle. How then should that be dealt with in relation to this article? As it is not actually about the subject of this article I can't see why it should take up so much space. --Utinomen (talk) 17:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Conflict
There's clealry on ongoing conflict about this group. As far as I can tell, a member resigned and started a competing group. Rather than taking sides in the dispute, it'd be best to report both sides if we can find any reliable sources about it.  Will Beback   talk    23:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Editors may find this wiki mediation interesting. Harvey's denial that Gary Cartwright was a local candidate for the National Democrats (this bloghas a scan from "The Flag" showing Cartwright's election result) seems on a par with denials made on this talk page regarding previous colleague Bill Binding. I cannot find the Nominet mediation document mentioned though Nominet state they publish their decisions; as the two websites still exist presumably there never was a decision? --JHumphries (talk) 22:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Semiprotected again
It seems there must be a real-world dispute concerning this group. Periodically, anonymous editors show up and change a lot of things. They never discuss on the talk page, and at first glance the changes appear to be poorly sourced. Since named people are involved, this is a WP:BLP concern. I've reimposed the semiprotection, which last expired in September. Any admin who believes that the problem has gone away may lift the protection. EdJohnston (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

OTRS activity
The following was posted on my user talk page, but it's relevant here.  Will Beback   talk    23:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC) "Ticket#2010100410009624

Dear JHumphries and Will Beback,

I sent an email to Wikipedia with a concern about a comment made on a page about the organisation I represent, which I reproduce below. As you can see they advised me either to go to the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard or to contact yourselves, and I am approaching yourselves in the first instance. I am now aware from my 'talk page' that it is preferable for me not to use this user name for which I apologise but it was never my intention to regularly post messages on Wikipedia.

The email and the reply are below, I would be grateful for your help or advice in this matter.

Dear Wikipedia,

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swinton_Circle&action=edit&section=1

Please can we bring to your attention a claim made on the above 'Talk Page' by '91.111.111.39 (talk) 13:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC) Alan Harvey, Chairman, the Swinton Circle - 21st March 2010' in particular the line "one of two disgrunted expelled members of the organisation (Messrs. Allan Robertson and Daniel Wilkinson) who were expelled for gross misconduct at the beginning of 2009"

I can confirm under oath of perjury that neither Messrs. Allan Robertson nor Daniel Wilkinson have been expelled from the Swinton Circle. Claims of "gross misconduct", which are unsubstantiated, would seem to be potentially libellous or defamatory.

Having read your policy we do not believe we are in a position to edit this page being both one of the persons named and the representative of the organisation which the article is about.

On a possibly related matter we received an email from Wikipedia stating that "Someone from the IP address 91.111.100.223 requested that we send you a new login password for the English Wikipedia." A login name was specially created by us to post one message on your 'mediation pages' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-4/Swinton_Circle), but we have not used the login name since. Whilst we are happy to "safely ignore this message" we thought it should also be brought to your attention that someone has tried to gain access to a login we created.

Allan Robertson

Chairman of the London Swinton Circle

Firstly, please accept my apologies for the delay in this response. As I'm sure you can imagine, the Wikimedia Foundation receives thousands of emails per day and as such we occasionally experience a back-log in our email queue. I can only apologise for this oversight.

Unfortunately, as an OTRS volunteer, I am unable to change the article substantially without community consensus. However, I can advise you on how to proceed from here.

You may wish to make a post to our neutrality noticeboard, which can be found here: . Please ensure that you state your conflict of interest when posting as this will allow our editors to assist you in the best manner possible.

Similarly, you may wish to speak to specific, interested editors who can be found on the article's talk page here: . I would especially recommend speaking to JHumphries or Will Beback regarding the issues you have been facing.

I apologies that I cannot help you in a more direct manner. However, should you require any additional assistance or information I will endeavour to help as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Elena Salvatore

I would add that I have received two further emails in the last week for a new login password from IP address 91.109.218.128 and IP address 91.109.252.110. I am happy for this user name to be erased if it is a problem.

As per Elena Salvatore's advice I state my "conflict of interest" in this matter as per my original email.

Allan Robertson,

Chairman of the London Swinton Circle

--Swinton Circle (talk) 21:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)"

Also note that I blocked User:Swinton Circle on account of the username. The user is free to edit here with a non-organisational user name.  Will Beback   talk    23:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Complaint and biased and inaccurate editing of this article.
Could someone please tell me why this Wikipedia article on the Swinton Circle constantly seems to be subject to biased and inaccurate "editing" almost immediately after I amend it to remove false information ?

Among the inaccurate assertions which I see have sadly once again been added to this article are the following :-

1) That Mr. Allan Robertson is still involved with the Swinton Circle. Mr. Robertson, along with two associates, were expelled from the organisation following a properly constituted EGM which took place on 17th January 2009. This followed an attempted but unsuccessful coup on the part of these three to allow the takeover of the organisation by a group of neo-fascists which included several known members of the BNP and and the late Ian Anderson, formerly the leader of he National Front. Mr. Robertson and his associates were all given the opportunity to attend this meeting, but none availed themselves of the opportunity. They were also all given the opportunity to appeal against that decision of the EGM that they should be expelled, but again none took the opportunity of doing so. Their expulsions therefore became absolute at the end of February 2009, and remain in force to this day.

2) The Swinton Circle has never been involved in any way with the now defunct "Conservative Democratic Alliance".

3) Mr. Bill Binding was never a member of the short-lived "National Democratic Party". He was a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party all the time that he was a member of the Swinton Circle.

4) I have never been expelled from the Swinton Circle, and indeed was re-elected as Chairman at the 2011 AGM of the organisation only last Wednesday.

5) The Springbok Club is NOT moribund! It hold regular monthly activities, the latest taking place only yesterday!

6) Mr. Gary Cartwright never stood as a candidate for he short-lived "National Democratic Party". It is believed that the organisation (which was founded by the late Ian Anderson after he was expelled from the National Front) only lasted for a few months, during which time the only election which they fought was one in which Mr. Anderson himself was humiliated - after which he closed down the party.

7) The decision was made in 2007 by the Executive Committee of the then London Swinton Circle to change the name simply to The Swinton Circle because it was expanding rapidly and there was a desire to establish a branch network around the UK. Old letter-heads continued to be used until exhausted however, and the organisation's web-site was not updated in this regard as quickly as may have been wise.

8) There is only one valid web-site for the Swinton Circle, that being at: http://www.swintoncircle.co.uk

Could the administrators of Wikipedia therefore please ensure that all these false and damaging claims about the Swinton Circle are immediately removed, and do not re-appear.

Alan Harvey -  Chairman, the Swinton Circle . — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlanDHarvey (talk • contribs) 19:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Editing by a subject of an article in itself runs the risk of being “biased”; editors may legitimately query the accuracy of any edits by Alan Harvey or any one else associated with these groups. I have indicated above what are POV claims by Alan Harvey. With regard to the other points -

2) Members of the Swinton Circle, other than Alan Harvey, were involved with the Conservative Democratic Alliance. I have re-worded the article

3) Binding may have been a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party that would not stop him also being a member of the NatDems;indeed, he seems to have been a member of various organisations through his career as the link shows.

5) I have removed the term 'moribund'.

6) Gary Cartwright was undeniably a local council candidate for the NatDems. That Harvey for whatever political/subjective reason denies this fact emphasises that editors must carefully scrutinize edits by Alan Harvey for their veracity.

That Alan Harvey, one of the subjects of the article, who continuously edits this article to his own POV, has asked on his talkpage for this article to be deleted because it does not suit his POV, would seem to be clear evidence of vandalism.

I see EdJohnston has added the edit warring template to User_talk:AlanDHarvey talk page. I will add vandalism template --Captain Trifle (talk) 12:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC) Edited comment--Captain Trifle (talk) 12:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Resolving the disputes
This article is a perennial problem. One possibility is to strip it down to the bare essentials that can are well-supported in reliable sources. However most of the content does not appear to be contentious. The contentious parts seems to concern Alan Harvey and the Springbok Club. Another option would be to split the article, creating a separate page for the Harvey-led group. Any other suggestions?  Will Beback   talk    21:06, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The other Harvey group pages, [Springbok Club] and [South African Patriot], have all been deleted, the first for not being notable and the second because it was apparently a "a steaming pile of manure"; based on that it is difficult to see that a separate Harvey Swinton group page would fare any better. Perhaps the answer would be to simply recreate the [Alan Harvey] page and include the material there. But that page was repeatedly deleted largely due, it seems, to edits by the subject. The editor who has recently vandalised this page here and here using 136.173.162.144 would appear to be Gary Cartwright, who is likewise a subject of the article. If the motivation of certain editors is their dispute with former colleagues then having a separate Harvey group page would not resolve the edit warring/vandalism as editors could still edit the Swinton Circle page as a way of continuing their dispute with former colleagues.--Captain Trifle (talk) 12:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point.   Will Beback    talk    18:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * As there clearly and undeniably now exist two groups there does some to be an argument for having two separate articles, but undoubtedly they would have to be carefully controlled. However, I do agree with comments above.  --JHumphries (talk) 17:49, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Rival Group
There has been persistent subjective changing of this article - it can be guessed by at least one of the subjects of the article - and much repeated discussion of the matter here as can be seen above, but it seems quite clear that
 * Allan Robertson is the current Chair of the London Swinton Circle;
 * Alan Harvey was expelled from the London Swinton Circle;
 * That Alan Harvey subsequently formed his own rival group following his expulsion.

Searchlight, and we can discuss them as a source, clearly describe Harvey's group as a "breakaway" formed in "2009" after Harvey was "expelled" from the London Swinton Circle, and clearly describe Allan Robertson as Chairman of the London Swinton Circle and note the respective different website address ("Ultra-right conservative and quasi-patriotic organisations active in Britain - Searchlight website January 2013).

I suggest,then, that any edit which tries to suggest this is not actually the case clearly runs the risk of being considered as deliberate vandalism.

User:AlanHarvey has been blocked, however, the edits which consistently try to portray the two groups as one with Harvey as Chair, come from a dynamic IP or different IPs. Should the article be protected (yet) again? --JHumphries (talk) 17:46, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Name Change
I am proposing that the article be renamed "London Swinton Circle". I do not consider this to be a controversial name change but other editors may wish to comment. My reason for doing so is that is the name of the group, and also because the name 'Swinton Circle' originally also applied to other groups which no longer exist and this article is not primarily concerned with them. --JHumphries (talk) 21:00, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Moved 31 March 2014 --JHumphries (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Further Information Required
Whilst probably not as interesting as the periodic edit war by Alan Harvey and co, I was wondering if any editors had any leads on the actual history of the Circle? The Circle has, it appears, changed from a discussion group for Conservative Party members and presumably controlled by the Party, to a meeting group for Conservative Party right-wingers in the eighties under Bee Carthew but presumably no longer controlled by the Party, to its present incarnation under Allan Robertson where it seemingly has no formal link to the Party. It is not clear how and why the London Swinton Circle continued when the other Circles did not? How did Conservative Central Office close them down (or did they just expire), and if so why not the London one? If the London one continued purely because it had been 'taken over' by Carthew why did the Party continue to allow association with it? And when did such association formally end? The Circle appears to have gone into some sort of hiatus in the mid-eighties, quite possibly because of the Ivor Benson debacle, for example O Maoláin's The Radical Right: a World Directory (1987) p328 lists the Circle under 'defunct organizations', could this be the period when it ceased to be formally associated with the Conservative Party? I accept it is impossible to establish any proper history for groupuscules, the interest is that this one evolved out of a mainstream party. --JHumphries (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Does this organisation still exist?
I hadn't heard of the London Swinton Circle until about five minutes ago. Does it still exist? I can't find any recent references. Seaweed (talk) 19:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)