Talk:Louisiana Voodoo/Archive 1

Merge
I think that this page ought to be merged with the "Voodoo" page. That page already covers the voodoo folk beliefs of the southern U.S. Literate16 09:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. No reason to have a separate article for Voodoo practiced in Louisiana. 188.126.207.212 (talk) 22:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Voodoo and hoodoo are not the same thing. Voodoo is a religion. Hoodoo is a system of folk magic. What is practiced in the Southern U.S. is hoodoo, not Voodoo.BoyintheMachine (talk) 20:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Disagree (with former, no stance on latter, hoodoo vs voodoo) - American Voodoo has as many distinctions as do the South American and Caribbean versions of the Yoruba influenced religion, such that no one would seek to merge Catholicism with Protestanism, even though they share certain similar origins prior to Martin Luther, ie the founding. In other words offshoots can often be diametrically opposed. That said, just because an offshoot is not diametrically opposed, it doesn't mean it cannot be original in its own right. Their is a racialist tendancy in the historiography of trad western civ such that we tend to toss everything together, oh it's a "jumbalaya" stew, where as we'd blush at the notion of tossing together such diverse aspects of Christianity as Anglican, Calvinist, Catholic or Latter Day Saint.

In Yorubaland, in Nigeria, the ceremony of the Calabash, walking from the river, the association of Osun, through to the aspect of identification of the king with Shango are of utmost importance. In Yorubaland the historical influence of Usman dan Fodio and the Fulani jihad of 1804 and the corresponding western influence of slavery change the pure aspect of the native religion, such that we can't be sure what a pure aspect would look like, but can trace backwards from Christian influenced current versions of Orisha, Muslim influenced, and also note the traditional aspects of non-Fulani Muslims also in Nigeria in neighboring ____land and triangulate commonalities.

The conch shell was the currency prior to western influence. But brass, associated with Osun, was also in some ways more valuable than gold. Salt, slaves, water, and cloth also were esteemed. But cola nuts, or kola nuts, were packaged together and also represented a standard of currency. Kola nuts were also integral to the Yoruba Orisha, in particular the system of divination. The traditional Yoruba week is divided into 4, not 7 days. And their is a binary aspect to the divination system, not unlike that used on modern computers. The gods are asked the same questions over and over, with a binary yes no response then being appeased by ritual animal sacrifice (which also just so happened to feed the diviner too, most often chicken, but also pigeon, turtle and in some cases snail- dogs were often sacrificed, but not eaten, a common misunderstanding, owing to teh fact they were sacrificed in particular to Ogun by blacksmiths, though chickens were also sacrificed to Ogun as part of the washing of the face with chicken blood). 2, 4, 8, 16, the simple exponential math of 2. Sixteen was the number of gods which originally come down the "chain of heaven" but they forget to bring a female diety. At this they go and get Osun, who is yet still somehow mother to all of them. I didn't write it. Anywho, so 16 is the number of Kola nuts in the divination system. But as Kola nuts, like most nuts, easily divide into two sections, 8 is also important, but this time as the diviners sort of encryption key, 8 being the number of so-called magical items he carries, four of which get held in teh right hand and for in the left, these being a kola nut, a shiny peice of glass, a conch shell and so on.

In Yorubaland, though the process of the calabash river ceremony crowning Shango is of utmost importance, yet Shango is in some ways rather minor. The dancing and drumming are as often for Erinle and Ogun the hunters. And dancing and drumming are not even as important as scarification, protection of the head and "inner-head" and divination. As a matter of fact, the ritual use of herbs and cutting the scalp is probably most integral, trying to divine what a child's destiny is and shape it, and as thus is also directly related to Osun, protector of the "inner-head" and hairdressers.

As slaves are sold into the New World, often for the production of coffee and sugar, the sugar often being used for Rum, the Spanish and Portuguese continue buying, trading, selling, trasporting to South America well after the British and later French outlaw it. But the bata drumming to Shango are integral in most of the New World versions, from Haitian Voodoo to Afro-Cuban NYC nightlife, from Miami Dade County Santaria, to Cuban Lucimi. Brazilian "white" Umbanda probably the notable exception, I would theorize because of more of a West Indian Hindu influence, though one in which Osun is supreme, though others might disagree.

Shango is a king who puts some magical substance on a neighbor's roof, which burns down killing everyone when it is hit by lightening. He thus runs away. His lover runs away with him, but disheartened, breaks down and betrays hims and turns back. However, when he is to be hung, he mysteriously comes back to life. There are different versions. But obviously, if you've just been stolen from your homeland and everything you know, the idea that you could identify with a king who's been betrayed, a powerful controller of mystic lightning, also a "hot" deity associated with masculinity, trickery, fire, power, virility, that's going to have an appeal. Ogun, a god of metal and blacksmiths, to those in chains without use of swords or guns, is not. Of course, in revolutionary Haiti, St. Jacques, John the Baptist, pictured with a sword, or in more British controlled territories like Trinidad or the Virgin Islands, St. George (dragonslayer) both of which are identified with Ogun, the sword and the color red are going to have more appeal.

Eventually there is a movement, as late as the 1960's with the black power movement, to try and erase the history of slavery, and thus find a pure Yoruba Orisha devotion, if such a thing exists or ever existed. Thus it is difficult to establish a "New York Voodoo" when what you have is an influx of Puerto Rican, Cuban, and even later native Yorubaland emigres bringing diverse devotional practices to the city. However, one can clearly see the influence of what is called Afro-Cuban Jazz, spreading out from NY through Hollywood, from Harlem through radio to the entire world and influencing many aspects of pop culture at large including hip hop. But looking back historically at New Orleans and Louisiana, well prior to the Miami influence of Afro-Cuban jazz and an emphasis on bata drumming for Shango, one can directly trace a line back to the Louisiana purchase, the decision by South Carolina to continue importing slaves in 1804 (date?) the French Revolution, and the San Domingo (Haitian) revolution through which creole, voodoo, jax, talking drums, hell even mule racing in the antebellum South, with a Zeitgeist of the medieval from the at-the-time popular writing of Ivanhoe offers a particular niche in time and place unique to New Orleans in which the subversive elements of Yoruba Orisha devotion kept alive by slaves in the religion of their slavemasters (popularly thought of as __________) are offered a less hidden context in the popular culture of Mardis Gras, Jazz and what is simply thought of as No'leans culture, such that it is unique, different, substantially so, and original, from Yoruba pure Orisha, Yoruba Christian or Muslim influenced Orisha, Santeria, Likumi, Umbanda, Kardacian but also Afro-Cuban culture, Haitian Voodoo, and a more generic Southern Voodoo. But as each of these has continued to influence the other, through music and culture including the internet and hip hop right up to the present day, it is probably impossible to tell for sure, let alone trying to navigate a proper historiography of the influences, devoid of influence, using German 19th century references in Haiti, communist histories of New World slavery, or experiental fantasies of "white" Umbanda, with Osun using magical powers from Atlantis to move pyramids, where differences between Hindi religious beliefs in the West Indies merging with African Yorubaland practices is washed away with the explination that history has it all mixed up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.177.181 (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Hoodoo
Actually, hoodoo (not capitalized) is the system of earth magic which corresponds with the religion of Voodoo, which may or may not be practiced in concert with Voodoo. It is a combination of African, Native American & European earth magic. Hoodoo employs the use & of ethno-botany, (the knowledge and use of herbs & roots native to particular cultures) and many other factors, such as "gris-gris" or mojo bags, candles, saints & charms. It is hoodoo, when the service to the lwa is not employed, Voodoo, when it is.

What is this all about? Is this meant to be on the talk page? Zerofri 02:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hoodoo has no connection or correspondence to the religion of Voodoo. Your use of the term "earth magic" signifies you as an outsider of the tradition as no hoodoo practitioner uses such terminology. The practitioners of hoodoo are Christian, primarily Baptist, and do not work with the Loa or other pagan spirits. BoyintheMachine (talk) 20:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Saints
I want to add all the saints and what not that have contributed to the Voodoo religion, does anyone know a primary source where I can find that information? --Spiffy790 (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization of Voodoo
Should "Voodoo" be treated as a proper noun and capitalized in all instances? Right now, it's inconsistent. ThreeOfCups (talk) 02:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it should.

I came to the page, however, to question the official etymology as listed by Websters. It would seem it could come from "Odu" in Yoruba instead of "Vodu" in Kwa.

But I originally was looking up the French term Vaudaux. As in Vaudaux dance. Which would be pronounced "voodoo" it would seem, in French? Right? or Voh-Daw or something about like that. And then I was wondering, well, Vaudeville, Vaude-ville Vaud-ville? Admittedly a stretch, the fact that I turned up nothing, that Vaudaux's etymology points to a family name, just made me more suspicious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.177.181 (talk) 19:05, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Lord's Prayer?
Why is the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer given (i.e. with doxology "For thine is the kingdom...") when this is supposed to have been introduced from Catholicism? 82.110.160.178 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC).

Weird Change not Vandalism
Dear wikipedians, don't get your panties in a wad. I changed "New Orleans Voodoo" to "Freedom Voodoo" and then back to "New Orleans Voodoo" to demonstrate to a student why it is that her teacher doesn't accept citations to wikipedia articles for his assignments. Sincerely, A. Librarian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.80.65.121 (talk) 01:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If such citations are used, then they should include the date that the article was sourced. That'll give the reader an opportunity to use View history to see what the page looked like on the day the student sourced it. Very often, Wikipedia can also be a great starting point, and the Discussion pages are repleat with vibrant controversies that cannot be handled on the main page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.247.254 (talk) 17:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Wack-a-pedia
Hey, how come some of these wiki pages have some cheap banner at the top saying the article needs citations or there aren't enough reference or something like that and this one doesn't? For example, the assertion that "high mortality created solidarity" - could be true, who knows, but it could use a citation. PorkchopLarue (talk) 01:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Catholic reaction
What is the official Roman Catholic reaction to Voodoo -- and to people who think that there is no conflict between the two systems of belief? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skysong263 (talk • contribs) 02:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

What is "superstition" ?
I searched the articles "Christianity", "Islam" and "Hinduism", and in none of them could I find the word 'superstition' being used. I think the term is more negatively charged than 'belief'. I also have a feeling that it's more common to associate the term with Voodoo than with the above mentioned religions. I suggest changing the words accordingly, unless somebody has reasonable objections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.126.207.212 (talk) 19:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I changed it. Please comment here if you want to revert. 188.126.207.212 (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Official Catholic Teaching- Response to "Catholic Reaction" (above) and Fainites
I am confused as to the reason my edit has been repeatedly reverted. This Wikipedia article implies and/or states in multiple areas that Voodoo teaching/belief and Catholic teaching belief are not in conflict, when they most certainly are. This is from an entirely objective point of view, stating only what the official documents of the Catholic Church state. If anyone doubts the validity of the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the representative nature of its content in relation to the Church's official stance, please voice such concerns.

If it is simply a matter of form or of placement in the article, please voice those concerns as well. It is simply unreasonable to leave such a glaring misrepresentation of the Catholic Church's stance on various practices uncorrected. It would be a disservice to the Wikipedia community and all of its readers to misinform them in such a way.

As for the second edit I made to the Voodoo Queens section, once this first issue has been resolved, it should fall into place. Obviously, anyone who practiced multiple things which are publicly condemned by official Church teaching could not be canonized. Only the most exemplary examples of both orthodoxy and love are even considered for canonization. Since Marie Laveau does not fulfill the requirements of the former, she cannot be canonized.

I hope this clears things up and moves us forward.

Divineofficer (talk) 19:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Splendid! This is what you need to do Divineofficer. Start talking on the talkpage. Meanwhile - please stop reverting other editors as clearly you do not have consensus. Please state here - with sources - what you want to add. It may be of course that the RC Church's official position is somewhat different to what happens on the ground and both aspects can be incorporated.Fainites barley scribs 23:56, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

OK Fainites (and all), here is what I state... with sources, as you request... that I want to add. This addition is intended with the full awareness that official Catholic Church teaching and the practice thereof by some purported members of aforementioned faith group are at odds with one another in many cases. Now, moving forward:

Official Catholic Church Teaching on the Types of Practices Incorporated Into Voodoo
While many followers of voodoo may purport to practice Catholicism, this does not mean that the Catholic Church's official teaching condones the practices of voodoo. The following is an excerpt from an official Catholic document called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It puts forth several teachings which show that the Catholic Church's official beliefs and those of voodoo are vastly different and, unfortunately, incompatible. For example,


 * "All forms of divination are to be rejected... conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to 'unveil' the future.
 * Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.


 * All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others- even if this were for the sake of restoring their health- are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity" (CCC 2116-2117).

Therefore, one must consider that several of the previous statements made in this article regarding the amicable relationship between the practice of voodoo and Catholicism, while perhaps in good faith, must be called into question, since they are untrue according to Catholicism's official stance.

---END ADDITION---

Notice the use of sources and that what is said in the addition is an objective statement of fact meant to clarify that voodoo and Catholicism as an official entity (not as a practice-as-you-choose system) are not exactly a harmonious pair of belief systems. This "amicable" relationship was implied by the wording and content of the article as it stands now (without the addition I have tried to make), and it is plainly false according to the Catholic Church's stance.

If there are any questions or clarifications that you require, please let me know. If there is a better way to present the information without losing the obvious point that voodoo and practice of true Catholicism cannot co-exist, please let me know. This clarification is not meant to be any form of hate speech or exclusion-focused rhetoric; rather, it is meant to correct a glaring error in the current state of the article.

Now, from a purely factual, reasonable, source-driven point of view, are there any objections to this addition?

To make it easier to validate the veracity of the previous assertions, here is the link to the (specific quoted sections of the) Catechism of the Catholic Church from the Vatican website: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

Divineofficer (talk) 01:36, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Point-by-Point Comparison of Voodoo Practices and Catholic Teaching on Said Practices
Current Article: "... the ritual creation of charms and amulets, intended to protect oneself or harm others, became key elements of Louisiana Voodoo."

Catholic Teaching: "All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others- even if this were for the sake of restoring their health- are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone...Wearing charms [and, by logical extension, making charms] is also reprehensible..." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2117).

Current Article: "The administrator of the ritual frequently evoked protection from Allah, the Christian God, and Jesus Christ."

"The gris-gris is then performed from one of four categories: love; power and domination; luck and finance; and uncrossing." (from the voodoo superstitions and spells section)

Catholic Teaching: "[In witchcraft]... supernatural aid is usually invoked either to compass the death of some obnoxious person, or to awaken the passion of love in those who are the objects of desire, or to call up the dead, or to bring calamity or impotence upon enemies, rivals, and fancied oppressors. This is not an exhaustive enumeration, but these represent some of the principal purposes that witchcraft has been made to serve at nearly all periods of the world's history.

In the traditional belief... the witches or wizards addicted to such practices entered into a compact with Satan, adjured [which means called upon] Christ and the Sacraments, observed "the witches' sabbath"—performing infernal rites which often took the shape of a parody of the Mass or the offices of the Church..." Thurston, Herbert. "Witchcraft." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 15. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1912. 29 Dec. 2010 .

To read the article, go to: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15674a.htm

Anyone who has read this article can see the similarities between the practices of witchcraft (as put forth in the Catholic Encyclopedia) and voodoo.

Current Article: "She acted as an oracle, conducted private rituals behind her cottage on St. Ann Street of the New Orleans French Quarter..."

According to the World English Dictionary, an oracle is "a prophecy, often obscure or allegorical, revealed through the medium of a priest or priestess at the shrine of a god" OR "any person or thing believed to indicate future action with infallible authority"

Catholic Teaching: "All forms of divination are to be rejected... conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to 'unveil' the future" (CCC 2116).

Current Article: "...[Marie Laveau] performed exorcisms..."

Catholic Teaching: "…it is only priests who are authorized to use the exorcising power conferred by ordination… called upon to perform his duty as exorcist… [the priest] is to be mindful of the prescriptions of the Roman Ritual and of the laws of provincial or diocesan synods, which for most part require that the bishop should be consulted and his authorization obtained before exorcism is attempted." Toner, Patrick. "Exorcist." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 5. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1909. 29 Dec. 2010 .

There are more objections that legitimate, orthodox Catholic teaching can make to the practices inherent to voodoo. If more are needed to convince people that the association between the Catholic Church as an official organization/belief system and voodoo is weak and unfounded, then I can produce them. I am simply trying to indicate the extent to which this article is misleading.

Divineofficer (talk) 03:36, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Consensus Timeline
Is there any set amount of time I have to wait for people to reply to my clarifications? If not, I will re-post my addition. If anyone wishes that I refrain from this action, please post a response within 12 hours. Thank you.

Divineofficer (talk) 05:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks Divineofficer. What you have here is what is called original research. In other words - you have taken a primary source (Catholic Church writings) and said they are incompatible with voodoo. This is original research. What you need to do is find a secondary source, ie some book or paper that covers the subject of the interelationship between catholicism and voodoo, and use that as a source. Also - 12 hours is not reasonable. People are editing from different timezones. Fainites barley scribs 10:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

My apologies Fainites... I thought at least one person could respond within 12 hours. Fortunately, you did!

Secondary Resources
Here are a series of secondary sources that validate my stated standpoint on the less-than-harmonious relationship between Catholicism and voodoo as a whole:

"The church has long struggled against the role of voodoo in Haitian society, which Haitians have used as a means of establishing their identity. In 1941 church and state together attempted finally to destroy the voodoo temples. Every baptized person had to take a vow to renounce the practices and teachings of voodoo, which was condemned as a Satanic cult. Papa Doc Duvalier, however, who was close to voodoo, ended the persecution and used voodoo as a political instrument.

When John Paul II visited Haiti in 1983, he encouraged the official church to oppose the brutal regime of Duvalier."

Fahlbusch, Erwin. The Encyclopedia of Christianity. Volume 2. Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1999.

Find the Google Books preview here (page 496): http://books.google.com/books?id=yaecVMhMWaEC&pg=PA496&lpg=PA496&dq=Bishop+Gayot+on+voodoo&source=bl&ots=fy3VRLsWGB&sig=qqcC_qKyPq7aN0HbxD8y6blvrwo&hl=en&ei=nL8cTbetHo26sAPw_dHoAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Bishop%20Gayot%20on%20voodoo&f=false

"In Haiti, the Church has sought out cultural elements and utilized them in the liturgy, in catechesis and in pastoral activity in general. Nevertheless, the Church must be vigilant, especially with regard to voodoo which is not a valid, complete response to the profound aspirations of man and which most often engenders fear, division and vengeance.

There is much propaganda today in favor of voodoo. Voodoo certainly conveys very rich cultural elements. However, cultural elements and voodoo beliefs must not be confused as if they were the same thing. A musical instrument, a musical rhythm, is neutral in itself. The identity of Haitian people does not necessarily express itself in voodoo." Constant, H. Exc. Rev. Msgr. Emmanuel, Bishop of Les Gonaïves. Synodus Episcoporum Bulletin. Holy See Press Office, 1997.

Here is the link to this article/publication: http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_17_speciale-america-1997/02_inglese/b20_02.html

Also, keep in mind that, although this specifically addresses Haitian voodoo, this in no way negates the Church's long-standing stance that voodoo as a whole is problematic and unfit for Catholics or other Christians to practice.

"Voodoo involves the worship of spirits and occult practices such as divination (fortunetelling) and sorcery. These practices are strongly condemned by God throughout the Bible, such as in Deuteronomy 18:9-13, where God forbids consulting anyone who practices 'divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead' (also see Leviticus 19:26, 31, 20:6; 2 Kings 17:17; Acts 19:18-19; Revelation 21:8, 22:15)."

Find this source here: http://www.gotquestions.org/voodoo-Bible.html

Is this a sufficient enough amount of evidence?

Divineofficer (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The first looks like a suitable source on Haitian Voodoo. The second may be a source as to what the Church says on various points. The third doesn't look suitable at all. It's not a question of "evidence" but reliable sources. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and as such relies mostly on notable and reliable secondary sources - not interpretation of primary material. To Wikipedia the Bible is simply one of many religious texts in existence. That is why an entry from a suitable source about RC efforts to combat voodoo in Haiti is appropriate but direct quotes from the Bible are not - unless they too emanate from a notable secondary source dealing with this point. The last site does this but it is a site interpreting the Bible.Fainites barley scribs 23:04, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Misleading Information
Hello, I have to agree with DivineOfficer. I ask that he be allowed to make his changes, or at least that the offending sentences be removed. As a Catholic, I merely wish to remove any statements that may lead readers to infer that the Catholic Church agrees with all Voodoo practices. Before reading this talk page, I made 2 modifications. The article used to state that Marie was a "devout Catholic." After reviewing the given source (the Skeptical Inquirer), however, I did not see this information. The only sentence that was close stated that "She won the approval of the local priest by encouraging her followers to attend mass." I think the wrong source is being cited here. Many thanks for the understanding, Respongen (talk) 10:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)Respongen

I agree. Nobody has been able to support the assertion that Voodoo is in agreement with Catholicism or even that there is no formal disagreement. Additionally, the Catholic Church has no formal cause for the canonization of Marie Laveau. The notion that Marie has a cause for canonization is most likely mistakenly derived from the fact that Henriette Delille, founded an order of nuns does have an active cause for canonization. Some people believe Henriette was a relative of Marie. If no one can explain why deceptive information with no existing source material to be cited should be included in the article, then, for the sake of the intellectual honesty and integrity of Wikipedia, the appropriate changes should be made. --ScardinoPrinting (talk) 15:17, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Further misleading information
Various details in this article are sourced to an article in the Salt Lake Tribune, which is evidently not available online. Since the matter was raised in the above matter of whether Catholicism and Voodoo are at odds, and whether this is verifiable according to primary sources, I should point out that newspapers are also often considered primary sources and are not guarantors of fact. A newspaper, in other words, is not peer-reviewed, and simply because a detail was listed in an article, once, does not mean that it is a verified truth. DivineOfficer above has raised important points but since they do not fit consensus it has been determined that they cannot be included in this article. As a result, it seems that he has given up his efforts, and the matter has been allowed to rest. However, the facts regarding Catholicism are also insufficiently verified by reliable sources, as this entire debate falls to matters of opinion and perspective, something that this article should reflect. In other words, since it is debatable whether Catholicism is on entirely friendly terms with Voodoo, and this article leads one to believe hands-down that they are on friendly terms, the article is one-sided and incomplete. As it stands, it is most certainly misleading, because a casual reader who takes Wikipedia articles for granted will come away thinking that Voodoo is somehow an orthodox subcategory of Roman Catholicism. The simple fact that someone has uploaded the information at some point in the article's history is insufficient to keep it here. If these facts are verifiable from reliable secondary sources, i.e., something other than an inaccessible newspaper article from Salt Lake City from an unlisted date, then we have another fix to make: correct all the relevant citations to reflect the details they are supposed to support.

So, here's one basic problem, which we can't elaborate on because I do not have access to the Salt Lake Tribune source: who is leading this "strong movement to have [Marie Laveau] canonized"? Are they Catholics, seeking canonization within the Catholic Church? Or is this a movement entirely within the Voodoo community? As stated, one would think the Catholic Church, if only because when one thinks of "canonization" one generally refers to that context. Is there a form of canonization within Voodoo? How many people make this "strong movement"? Baronplantagenet (talk) 19:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Number of Followers
Are there any estimates of the number of voodoo practicioners in the United States, Haiti, and other areas? Maybe some people have listed voodoo on their Census forms. When I saw Marie Laveaux's grave in 1990 there appeared to be a fair number of people who had been there recently, and there were also those who believed that she was entombed not in her marked tomb, but other nearby tombs. Marks and trinkets were left at those locations as well. As for the voodoo vs. catholicism debate, I think church leaders really, really hate it, like a gardener hates weeds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.247.254 (talk) 18:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed embeds that have been deleted
Mariel Laveau, Li Grand Zombi, and Gris-gris Badanedwa (talk) 18:42, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

disputed and dubious inline tags
The cited source doesn't mention anything about Marie Laveaux performing exorcisms, and said only that her palmistry exhibitions weren't convincing - small support for claims of being a recognized oracle. Also, the source doesn't say that "thousands" visit her tomb - it says "a steady stream" (of visitors). Sbalfour (talk) 00:32, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Propose New Section Establishing The Controversy Of Whether New Orleans Voodoo Ever Existed As A Real Tradition
In the 1930s, Zora Neale Hurston, African-American author and folklorist, traveled to New Orleans in search of Voodoo. She found nothing. She found hoodoo (folk magic)seemingly around every corner but found no sign of Voodoo.

Harry Middlton Hyatt, folklorist, traveled the Southern U.S. in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1970s, collecting folklore, folk magic and spells. He interviewed many a person from New Orleans and other parts of Louisiana. Not one single person he interviewed ever said anything about Voodoo. Instead, they all spoke about hoodoo.

Ferdinand "Jelly Roll" Morton, the inventor of Jazz music, was interviewed by Alan Lomax in 1938. In the interview he stated (paraphrased), "What some (white people) call Voodoo, here in New Orleans we call hoodoo."

These three things cast doubt on the historicty of New Orleans Voodoo as a genuine tradition rooted in the real world. It appears that "New Orleans Voodoo" did not arise in New Orleans until the late 1970s or 1980s, along with the rise of "Voodoo shops", "Voodoo museums", and the marketeers catering to tourists. There is little to no evidence that Voodoo ever existed as a legitimate tradition in New Orleans. What evidence does exist all points to New Orleans Voodoo being made up and promoted by the marketeers who continue to make money from it.

http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

http://southern-spirits.com/morton-hoodoo-new-orleans.html

I hearby propose a new section being made to cover the controversy surrounding the alleged historicity of New Orleans Voodoo. BoyintheMachine (talk) 20:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

New book
Voodoo and Power: The Politics of Religion in New Orleans 1881-1940 by Kodi A. Roberts, Louisiana State University Press Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 21:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Dr. John Montanee name added
I am a Voodoo author and scholar, and am adding a citation referencing the full name of Dr. John. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LilithAuthor (talk • contribs) 20:13, 25 February 2017 (UTC)