Talk:Lucy Bronze

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Lucy Bronze: Personal Life[edit]

An edit-war has broken out between me and LucyWalshWhite over the presence of material in the 'personal life' section. The bone-of-contention is as follows:

I have attempted to add a small line of text stating "Bronze is a member of the LGBT community". This is cited by what I believe to be a reputable source, Vice, who's articles have been used in thousands of Wikipedia articles. Vice is a non-tabloid news American news cooperation, and its articles are accepted by Wikipedia as reputable sources. The article in question states "The women's game, however, has many openly lesbian or bisexual players, both on a professional and grassroots levels – from Karen Bardsley to Lucy Bronze".[1] The article has the advantage of being published quite recently, in June 2019.

Lucy Walsh White argues that she believes Bronze is not openly a member of the LGBT community and as such adding this information is an invasion of privacy. However, I respectfully disagree, since the trustworthy source provided clearly states that Karen Bardsley and Lucy Bronze are openly lesbian or bisexual, pointing to the fact that Bronze is already public with her identity. Therefore, I believe that it is not an invasion of privacy to add this information as the fact is already in the public discourse. I therefore think it is in the public interest to document the information that is recorded in already-published sources, since this is the aim of Wikipedia: to inform. LucyWalshWhite has failed to provide a more trustworthy, recent source which discredits the information I am attempting to add, appearing to be using her own opinion to disregard the truthfulness of the information.

LucyWalshWhite also argues that the Vice article should not be allowed as it "does not give any evidence or additional sources and could have been opinion of the writer". I do not share this view. Using this logic, many newspaper articles should not be allowed as sources on Wikipedia merely because they do not have a bibliography of sources, or because the opinion of the writer has appeared to have been used to make points (which in truth is sometimes difficult to determine). In reality, such rules do not exist. It is my belief that as long as a news source is considered to be a reputable non-tabloid trustworthy source, it may be used in references for a biography of a living person.

There has been a suggestion that what I am attempting to add is disrespectful since it 'outs' Lucy Bronze, and as such is disrespectful to people in the LGBT community. I have no intention of being disrespectful nor of outing her. It is my solemn belief that this source already shows she is comfortable and open with her identity. I do not think it is necessary nor proper for Bronze to have to, for example, 'come out' in a public interview or to the media directly, which LucyWalshWhite argues is necessary before any claim can be made that she is LGBT. If she has just been quietly but knowingly been living as openly part of the LGBT community and that is a known fact (as I believe this article shows), then that is quite adequate. Individuals do not need to make a public statement to make others aware of their sexual orientation. I also think that any suggestion that Bronze's identity in this sense should be 'hidden' or 'protected' when it appears to be already known is disagreeable: such a suggestion implies that Bronze's LGBT identity should be hushed up, which I think gives a completely wrong message of intolerance. Bronze is an idol for many young girls and women who aspire to be footballers or like football; I think that to record how she is comfortable with her LGBT identity would sent a positive and powerful message to these individuals that being LGBT is okay, and it will encourage young girls to be open and comfortable with their identity. Hiding facts about Bronze in this area will do the opposite.

In summary, there is a considerable amount of debate and disagreement in this area, but I strongly believe that the addition of this small, 8-word comment is necessary in this biography. I am happy to discuss this with other users to come to an agreement on this matter.

AmSam13 (talk) 13:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Do you have any other sources except this one? Vice is of questionable reliability, and trying to base a WP:BLP claim on a website that only occasionally rises above the tabloid level is a dangerous game to play. - SchroCat (talk) 14:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I should have asked if you have any reliable sources. So far you have the New Statesman, but the way it’s phrased is not as clear as I’d like if we’re going to make a definitive statement about someone’s sexuality, particularly if that person hasn’t made it clear themselves. (The obsession with tabloid-type sources about sexuality, which overlook that person’s achievement in their professional sphere is always something to be wary of). - SchroCat (talk) 17:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, fair enough. Could we not then rephrase the statement so as to say "it has been reported that Bronze is a member of the LGBT community, but she herself has never confirmed nor denied this"? Or how about "it is believed that Bronze is a member of the LGBT community, but she has never confirmed nor denied this"?. Then use the Vice source, with the New Statesman source to support this, as references? I'd like to reach a negotiated consensus on this matter. AmSam13 (talk) 17:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Um, no. We don’t mess about with WP:BLPs like that (imagine if your personal information was being handled in such a lackadaisical manner and offhand manner). BLP is one of our strongest policies - and with damned good reason: it affects real people in a very real way. Why the need to have their sexuality in the article in the first place? - SchroCat (talk) 17:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I refer you to my original entry in this thread.AmSam13 (talk) 18:10, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not the place to right WP:GREATWRONGS. There are not any good sources on this point, and it’s inclusion is highly questionable. - SchroCat (talk) 18:30, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SchroCat, I'm sorry, but you wasted your time on a sock here... (a sock who is obsessed with other people's sexuality.) Drmies (talk) 15:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Lott-Lavinga, Ruby (7 June 2019). "Pro-LGBTQ Culture in Women's Football Means You Can Openly Date Your Teammates". Vice. Retrieved 30 May 2020.
  2. ^ Margolis, Eleanor (25 June 2019). "The success of the Women's World Cup means I can finally fancy a top-flight footballer". NewStatesman. Retrieved 30 May 2020.
  3. ^ DIVA magazine. London: DIVA Media Group. 15 August 2019.
  4. ^ "Get your kicks: Women's football is on the up". DIVA. 14 November 2019. Retrieved 30 May 2020.
  5. ^ "Karen Bardsley Biography". Playerswiki.com. 7 July 2019. Retrieved 30 May 2020.
  6. ^ "Keira Walsh Biography". Playerswiki.com. 15 September 2019. Retrieved 30 May 2020.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:23, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality in lead[edit]

MOS:LEADBIO says to include details that give context to the subject's notability:Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable. Bronze is notably as an England International footballer, and including nationality is standard here. Multiple editors have tried adding, but are reverted. Spike 'em (talk) 20:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Spike, I already explained several things that mean adding "English", specifically, is unnecessary (as well as plain wrong). But let me reiterate:
  1. Bronze is notable, and I quote your message right here, as an England International. This is different to English.
  2. The first sentence already says professional footballer who plays as a right-back for Barcelona and the England national team - if you want to claim adding "English" is necessary to meet MOS notability requirements (which for this bio is kind of a stretch anyway; locational context can easily be which famous clubs Bronze has played for - indeed, she has had most success in France), you haven't even read to the end of the sentence. "England" is already there.
  3. It is true that including nationality is standard, though it is not necessary. I assume you are aware that Bronze's nationality is not English. It is British-Portuguese, a fact she has frequently (and recently) made abundantly clear; in finding a source for this, I was led to a TikTok where she has even (jokingly?) indicated that she doesn't like being described as "English". In any case, "English" is not a possible nationality at all.
  • I don't know if you've looked through the edit history, but to catch you up: the lead originally said "English"; some users then added "and Portuguese". I didn't know this, looked for those sources, and slimlined this to "British-Portuguese". This was met with objection, seemingly due to Bronze not representing Portugal and the possibility for confusion (does nobody read to the end of the sentence?). But, since stating the nationality in this case is frankly unnecessary due to, as said, that first sentence already having "England" in it, the route of least objection was not to mention it at all.
    In sports bios, some editors have taken it upon themselves to change "British" to whichever home nation a person competes for, even when the person is more notable for representing the UK (e.g. at athletics world championships) or Team GB at the Olympics (Bronze, of course, has done the latter, too). I can understand the need for this derivative distinction when it is, say, rugby union, as the home nations frequently compete against each other. Otherwise, it is strange but tolerable, as it isn't totally wrong to describe a British person born in England/Wales/Scotland as English/Welsh/Scottish.
    However, when it is a person of additional non-British nationality (or non-British but eligible to represent), like Bronze, it is not just a strange derivative nationality, it is a total factual inaccuracy - and there is certainly nothing in any MOS that encourages that, rather, the opposite. Repeatedly adding it back "because leads usually have a nationality" isn't going to fly. As a pseudo-comparative, see the article for Maya Le Tissier, another England international women's footballer. Le Tissier is not from England or Britain at all (Guernsey doesn't seem to have a women's football team) and so the lead doesn't include nationality (this is where I took the "compromise" idea of non-inclusion from). Kingsif (talk) 23:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Olympique Lyonnais or Lyon[edit]

In the lead, infobox and honours section the club is referred to as Lyon but in the club career and career statistics section the club is referred to as Olympique Lyonnais. Which name should be used? (Fran Bosh (talk) 11:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC))[reply]

Possibly Olympique Lyonnais at first usage and anywhere it needs reintroducing (note that it was from Olympique Lyonnais to Lyon in the honours section very recently, which may warrant reversion), but Lyon generally. This would be in line with articles about football across Wikipedia that may use a formal name occasionally but use the common name most often - sometimes a hard rule may not be wise, with whichever name suits each instance best used. Or even with Manchester City in this article itself being shortened. Kingsif (talk) 21:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Debates about nationality in the lede[edit]

The first debate can be found here on my talk page, and the second one is ongoing at WT:WPF. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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