Talk:Lynching/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Gold rush

@Horse Eye's Back: Why do you say that the source clearly focuses on lynching ? From what I see in the description at Amazon's, the source is about transporting racial hierarchies from the South to the West. That's not the only problem I have with the recent addition. I also fear it's in the wrong place (Mexican victims are mentioned several paragraphs later), and given the number of lynching victims it seems too long (i.e. WP:UNDUE) in relation with the thousands of African-American victims. Finally, both orthography ("minors") and the reference should be corrected. --Rsk6400 (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I've read the source, I must also note that I find your denial of those lynchings ("during the Gold rush, one might expect common murder.") offensive and I suggest that most would agree. Please retract it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I learned from the quote that DolyaIskrina provided and from the source that I added that those murders were lynchings. But I don't see how my edit summary might offend anyone. If I say that a murder doesn't qualify as lynching, but still qualifies as murder, how should that be insulting to the victim's memory ? Rsk6400 (talk) 08:26, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

If you say that the Holocaust was mass murder but not a genocide is that insulting anyone's memory? Lynching denial and genocide denial are in the same camp. You also had no basis to do that on, you were challenging a reliable source with apparently no inherent knowledge of your own and no source of your own. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:19, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@DolyaIskrina: Thanks for providing the quote. Since the "Cite" templates have a chapter parametre expecting the chapter's title, maybe you could provide the title. I added the chapter number to the minutes parametre, which is surely not correct. I removed the part about the rate, since it was not clear (rate per year / per capita and year ? Only counting Mexican / Chilean miners or counting all Mexicans / Chileans living in California ?), and I also changed the order, giving priority to the lynchings of abolitionists, since e.g. Elijah Lovejoy was lynched in 1837. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok. The name of chapter 3 is "The West". The Cite AV template is kicking back an error. I don't think it's meant for audio books. I'll let you figure all that out. I'm surprised there isn't an audio book template, but an audio book is really just a book with the only difference being a time instead of a page. DolyaIskrina (talk) 16:13, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Generalrelative

Okay @Generalrelative: please tell me what's wrong with this source. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 17:39, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Short answer: Wikipedia is based on WP:SECONDARY sources. Generalrelative (talk) 17:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

@Generalrelative: I get the sense that you came up with that answer after you undid the revision, based on the lack of reason given. Especially since WP:SECONDARY is explicitly not about studies. If you scroll up very slightly you will see a section that explicitly classifies reliable sources as such things as: "Peer-reviewed journals, Books published by university presses, University-level textbooks." My source is in fact a Secondary Source. It is a study conducted upon primary sources. I think you are using the rules to enforce your POV. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:10, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Given that we appear to be discussing a secondary source I'd like to hear the long answer. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd really like to hear it too. Especially as statistics about Lynchings are freely available, and he is suddenly saying this is controversial? What part is controversial, @Generalrelative:? It seems like they are engaging in disruptive editing for unspecified reasons to me. There's nothing controversial about what I've written, and you can see a similar distribution of races and genders on the List of lynching victims in the United States. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:25, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

@TiggyTheTerrible: Please don't refer to me as "he". Thanks, Generalrelative (talk) 18:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Not for this data, which was compiled by the authors. Here's what the source states:

When combined with the new Tolnay-Beck data (Beck 2015), we record 4,467 total victims of lynching from 1883 to 1941. Of these victims, 4,027 were men, 99 were women, and 341 were unknown gender (although likely male); 3,265 were black, 1,082 were white, 71 were Mexican or of Mexican descent, 38 were American Indian, 10 were Chinese, and 1 was Japanese.

And here's TiggyTheTerrible's close paraphrase:

From 1883 to 1941 there were roughly 4,467 victims of lynching. Of these, 4,027 were male, and 99 female. 341 were of unknown gender, but are assumed likely male. Roughly 3,265 were black, 1,082 were white, 71 were Mexican or of Mexican descent, 38 were American Indian, 10 were Chinese, and one was Japanese.

Note also that such close paraphrasing is also prohibited. Generalrelative (talk) 18:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Compiling other sources is inherently secondary... Although I do share your concerns about close paraphrasing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Is it? My understanding is that what makes a source secondary is commenting on data compiled by others. Generalrelative (talk) 18:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

What Horse Eye's Back says, yes. Synthesizing data is already secondary (an act of interpretation), which is why we won't allow it here. Sure, it needs to be rewritten, maybe--but then, WP:LIMITED might well apply here. "Roughly", BTW, that's not OK here: the source didn't indicate any kind of "roughness". Drmies (talk) 18:33, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I can rephrase it, or add it as a full quote if needed. But since @Generalrelative: rejected it in that exact form, I'm not sure how they can make that argument here. General, as a side note, I am sorry if I referred to you as 'he'. I have been trying to refer to everyone as they, but I may have slipped. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:36, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, TiggyTheTerrible. I appreciate the effort. Generalrelative (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll defer to your judgment, Drmies. I've been frustrated with TiggyTheTerrible's persistent attempts to insert male victimhood into a number of articles recently, so I may have jumped the gun in this instance. If you agree that this edit on its own conforms with policy I suppose it should stay. I'll go ahead and self-revert. Generalrelative (talk) 18:43, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Tiggy, I'm fine with either a rephrase or a direct quote; whatever looks more elegant. As far as I'm concerned your source is fine: it's secondary, BTW it's published in a peer-reviewed journal. The map that is linked in the article is very interesting; lots of articles still need to be written. Robert Wilson, Montgomery, Alabama, 1896... Generalrelative, obviously I can't comment on the editor's career or habits; I haven't looked at them. But yes, the source is acceptable here. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 18:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Drmies: How about: "From 1883 to 1941 there were found to be 4,467 victims of lynching. Of these, 4,027 were male, and 99 female. 341 were of unknown gender, but are assumed to be likely male. In terms of ethnicity; 3,265 were black, 1,082 were white, 71 were Mexican or of Mexican descent, 38 were American Indian, ten were Chinese, and one was Japanese." If the map from the article is interesting, would it be reasonable to add it? I didn't realise we could do that, if so. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:47, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Sure, that looks fine to me, but I didn't do a deep dive because LIMITED offers leeway (oddly enough it allows the opposite of leeway, in a way...). You can scrap "found to be", as far as I'm concerned, since that only adds a passive phrase. As for the map, I think that would be a very appropriate link--the current section (see my last edit in the article) is pretty bad, just a dump. But it might fit better in Lynching in the United States, an article with problems, and with a different but also problematic EL section. Drmies (talk) 18:52, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Drmies:. I'll get right on that. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:02, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I think you are right about the image being better on that page, though I've just taken a look at the wiki rules on images on commons and I'm not sure I'm allowed to upload it. Is there a procedure for adding cited images like this? Or am I fine just putting it on commons? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I follow you, Tiggy--it's an interactive map, not an image, and I'm suggesting putting the link in the EL section. Like, "Interactive map of lynchings in the United States, 1883-1941" or something like that. Drmies (talk) 19:30, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh! I'm sorry lol. I'll go do that. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:50, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Further_reading#Reliable

@Rsk6400: Editors most frequently choose high-quality reliable sources. However, other sources may be appropriate, including: historically important publications; creative works or primary sources discussed extensively in the article; and seminal, but now outdated, scientific papers. When such sources are listed, the relevance of the work should be explained by a brief annotation.

Given a historical subject, Wikipedia should not shy away from naming even the most vile of sources, since it gives the reader a good impression of the thinking at the time. Removing a contemprary source from the NAACP on the topic of lynching is just unproductive. Include an annotation if you want, but don't whitewash and don't sugarcoat it. Also do not confuse policy with an essay Kleuske (talk) 12:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

@Kleuske: Before everything else: Can you please explain your edit summary, Don't lie in edit summaries. Thanks. To me, it looks like a personal attack. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:54, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Before anything else, can you please keep this discussion on topic? Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 12:57, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

User:Rsk6400 says this edit I did was badly worded and not fully supported. I disagree and feel like my addition was noncontroversial but what do you think? The section in my version goes "Most, but not all, lynchings ceased by the 1960s.Records show official records of lynchings in some states happening officially until the 1980s and 1990s. Allegations exist that up to this day, there have been lynchings were listed as suicides and were covered up in Mississippi." Any thoughts?Lmharding (talk) 15:58, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

(1) "Records show official records of lynchings in some states happening officially" - Sorry, I don't understand that. What is it that happens there officially ? Records ? Lynchings ? (2) The al.com source expresses doubts whether that was a lynching. The cnn.com source doesn't use the term "lynching", and jw.org is surely no reliable source. Rsk6400 (talk) 20:13, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I meant that most official records of declared lynchings stopped after the 1960s. Sorry for the confusing wording. Lmharding (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:40, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Image of the September Massacres

There is an image of the September Massacres, but no references to this in the main article apart from the caption of this image. Any editors to this page should add some information about this to the article, and mention in what way it was a lynching/is linked to the practice of lynching, using reliable sources that also mention this link to avoid original research. QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:54, 19 August 2022 (UTC)