Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 6

NPOVishness
I haven't read the archived talk pages, but it strikes me that the story of Jeremiah Duggan is a really notable omission. Duggan's death did quite a bit to expose LaRouche's organization to intense media and police scrutiny.
 * Yes: the police scrutiny found that the LaRouche organization had nothing to do with it. The media scrutiny followed the usual format (see ). --Weed Harper 15:42, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also, reading through it, I believe that there are many cases of the text being just blatantly POV toward calling the LaRouche organization an anti-Semitic cult. Don't get me wrong: I find them to be a genuinely scary cult, and I have a friend who bears scars from Operation Mop-Up. But still, something like:

"During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)."

is just blatantly POV. There is no reason to mention Mussolini here if our goal is to provide information on Lyndon LaRouche. LaRouche's writings should be treated on their own, zany, scary, level and not because they are similar to Mussolini's. DanKeshet 06:53, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Here's a great quote: "Who is pushing the world toward war is the forces behind the World Wildlife Fund, the Club of Rome, and the heritage of H.G. Wells and the evil Bertrand Russell."

"An Open Letter to President Brezhnev", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Executive Intelligence Review, June 2, 1981 AndyL 21:18, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Virtually all of LaRouche pamphlets consist of quotes like that. Here, from the magazine I just took the picture of: "The era of thermonuclear terror launched in the postwar period had been promoted for decades by H.G. Wells, and Bertrand Russell, as the pathway to world Fabian dictatorship." (unsigned caption) in Children of Satan III: The Sexual Congress for Cultural Fascism, June 2004. The central thesis of the magazine is that the Congress for Cultural Freedom is working to conquer Europe and America for fascism by weakening it culturally, and that they are responsible for such things as 1960s counterculture, which has pushed the US toward "an existentialist, irrationalist dark age society, which was precisely the agenda of the Congress for Cultural Freedom". DanKeshet 01:42, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In response to some of the above points:

I agree that the reference to Mussolini is probably a bit tendentious, but it does serve to show that LaRouche's transition from extreme left to extreme right is not unprecedented.


 * Or it would, if LaRouche had ever made such a transition. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:18, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * See Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/The_Herschelkrustofsky_List for more of this. Martin 18:25, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is true that a lot of LaRouche rhetoric is just gibberish, and it is a mistake to try to analyse it as though it was capable of logical explanation. I have been doing more LaRouche reading as a prelude to another assault on this article, and after a while it is hard to avoid the conclusion that he is simply mad.

This article does not need protecting. What it needs is for the anonymous LaRouchist who has been vandalising it to be barred from editing it. There is no way this "dispute" can be "resolved," because LaRouchists are not amenable to rational discussion. I have more work I want to do on this article so I would like to see it unprotected as soon as possible. Adam 15:24, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My attempt to bar the anon user was countermanded. I guess we need to ask the ArbCom to do something. AndyL 17:26, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For those of you just joining us
This article has a long history, as you can see from the five volumes of Talk archives. It was edited and re-edited by various parties until June of 2004, when it was seized by a gang I'll call the Empire Faction, because the ringleaders are AndyL, a Canadian who writes a lot of admiring articles about British Commonwealth/Imperial functionaries, and Adam Carr, an Australian who writes a lot of similar articles, but more importantly is on the staff of Australia's most outspokenly fascist Member of Parliament, Michael Danby. Adam deleted the Lyndon LaRouche article altogether, and replaced it with a laughable smear job (the presently protected article is a slightly toned down version of same.) Any attempts to edit the smear job were met with revert wars, leading to protection of the article, at which point I asked for arbitration (see evidence). The arbitration accomplished nothing, finding very anticlimactically that the contending factions ought to be more polite to one another. Arbitrator Fred Bauder put it this way: "We don't try to arbitrate the content of articles, for example by doing a lot of research regarding Lyndon LaRouche and trying to figure out what's true and what's not, or even whether this source or that source said what about him." (see Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche)

Meanwhile, the page was unprotected. I made two efforts to edit it, and gave up, because the Empire Faction would immediately resume the edit war, and I was hoping that arbitration would do something other than what it ultimately did. The page, with minor modifications, remained a huge manure pile of propaganda, reeking with POV. On August 5, an anonymous user writing from the Philippines (203.215.75.149) attempted to edit out some of the offal, at which point another edit war was launched, leading to another protection.

I have become somewhat fatalistic about the process; I have contributed a list of the most glaring lies, which I will reproduce below. I also refer the reader to Significant Ommissions from the Current Version. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well Adam, we've been found out as British Imperialists. Perhaps we should tell Herschel about our secret membership in the Privy Council and our clandestine meeting at the Queen Mother's funeral. The Queen (or ma'am as I call her) has promised me a peerage if I fulfill my mission to root out any hint of LaRouchianism in Wikipedia. What has she promised you?AndyL 01:15, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I call her "Liz" or "Toots" so obviously I have seniority over you in the Imperial Cabal. More seriously, I am getting copies of some of the LaRouche documents we have been debating, from that well-known Zionist front the New York Public Library. This will enable me to verify (or otherwise) some of the citations from King. When I have them I will start work on the article again. Adam 08:41, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Updated list of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version
-> Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List

Each one of these inventions or propagandistic insinuations constitutes a violation of Wikipedia policy; (see What_Wikipedia_is_not). --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm reworking this, because each time you repost the same accusations, shorn of the fact that they've already been discussed, which has the effect of rewinding the discussion to the start again. This does not progress things. Martin 17:24, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * John Kenney acknowledged some points on the original list, but nothing changed on the article. As I have noted, I don't attempt to edit the article, because Adam 'n' Andy immediately go for revert war. Andy, to his credit, did remove three or so of the cited items, and I promptly re-worked the list. Andy's edits were the only significant changes before the recent protection. So, the list will change as the article changes. I'm not sure precisely what your objection is, but I don't mind you structuring the talk pages. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I've moved some of them to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to respect the 32KB limit. Just as a suggestion, try picking just one of your issues, the one you think is most important, and try to get that resolved. Then, go on to the next one. Your list will always be linked at the top, so the reader will easily be able to find out a complete list of your criticisms, but it's impractical to solve them all simultaneously. Martin 21:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * My "one" issue is that the entire article is a malicious, propagandistic misrepresentation of its topic, in violation of Wikipedia principles. The points on the list are just evidence to support that thesis. The arbitration committee has made it clear that they have no intention of arbitrating the truth or falsehood of articles, and Adam 'n' Andy seem to have an uncanny knack for getting their version of the article protected, so I am limited to raising my objections on the talk page. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I see, Martin, that you have put quite a bit of work into this, and I think that it was done fairly and honestly. There are a few problems; I reworded two subject headers that I think missed the point of what was being contested. Also, you use the original list, when some of the points of contention have been re-worded without making them less false or misleading; my more recent lists reflect the new formulations. But I know you want to keep the earlier discussion in context. You undertook a complicated task, and I think that you did a pretty good job. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:14, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Thank you: I try my best. I maintain my suggestion that you focus on one objection at a time. Martin 00:36, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Herschelkrustofsky is not trying to get his "issues" "resolved". He is just regurgitating LaRouche propganda over and over again because that is what he is programmed to do. Adam 23:59, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A More Honest Assessment
I think that this assessment of LaRouche is far more honest than Dennis King's:

"U.S. economist Lyndon LaRouche ... was among the first personalities to propose a debt moratorium for the developing countries in the middle of the seventies, in polemics against the International Monetary Fund and other supranational institutions, promoters of a neocolonialist system based on usury. LaRouche, one of the most controversial personalities on the international scene, since 1994 has underlined that the present financial system is practically bankrupted and that it must be replaced by a system based on a radically new concept. His economic forecasts, particularly of the financial crashes of 1987 and of 1998, have proven to an ever-larger public his qualities as an economist. LaRouche sees American history as the primary battleground of a clash between those who intend to continue the anticolonial tradition, particularly by Franklin Delano Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy, responsible for the creation of nation-states -- whose roots have to be found in European and Renaissance history -- and those forces behind the Pax Americana which de facto corresponds to the supranational oligarchical interests, historically centered in England."

--from ''La guerra del petrolio. Strategie, potere, nuovo ordine,'' by Italian oil expert and historian Benito Li Vigni, Rome, 2004.

--Weed Harper 15:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Who made this translation from the Italian? Do you have a source for the publication of this translation? Can you find an assesment of LaRouche's stengths as an economist written by an actual economist? Martin 20:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What a waste of time
This whole effort--the article, the edits, the rewrites, the endless arguments and recriminations--are a colossal waste of time and one that will not benefit the users of Wikipedia at all. LaRouche doesn't deserve this much hand-wringing and source-checking and verifying and evidence. He certainly doesn't deserve a Wiki article that gives detailed treatment to his personal biography and ideas. LaRouche is not a politician; he is not a scientist; he is not a scholar; he is not a philosopher. He is nothing but a crank who repeatedly runs for president and who has apparently managed to fool a few foreign dignitaries, institutions, and newspapers who didn't know any better to give him the time of day. A Wiki article on LaRouche need include little more that this, and perhaps also that so far as American society is concerned, LaRouche signifies nothing except a guy whose followers accost them at train stations with incomprehensible political tracts. Period.

Ah yes, but there's also a detailed article for Alois Hitler, the father of Adolf Hitler. Marcus2 19:39, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree that this article now gives LaRouche far more prominence than he deserves, and that we are all spending far too much time on him. Unfortunately, because Wikipedia has no quality control mechanisms, it is necessary to respond over and over again to the same handful of LaRouchite propagandists who insist on contaminating Wikipedia with their lies and slanders. Personally I would much rather be writing articles about Buddhist temples. Adam 01:29, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

And I would much rather be writing laudatory articles on British imperial functionaries and European Communist revolutionaries. Oh, I lead such a conflicted inner life ;). AndyL 03:38, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps Herschelkrustofsky is Lyndon LaRouche himself. Krusty identifies himself as "an old guy, with some knowledge of history, politics and art" on his user page, and LaRouche is in his early-eighties and has some knowledge of history, politics and art. Given that this article is #7 on a google search for Lyndon LaRouche, perhaps the old guy wanted to write an article likely somewhat influential in shaping his public image. 172 07:31, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It had occurred to me that Herschelkrustofsky might actually be Lyndon LaRouche, although he did say at one point that he lived in California, but since I am barred from making personal attacks on Herschelkrustofsky, I would never dream of slandering him so grossly. Adam 07:50, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Herschelkrustofsky's slanders
I have placed the following request with User:Fred Bauder:

Lyndon LaRouche: Further to this matter, since I have been censured and penalised for personal attacks, I think it is now appropriate that I ask you to make an additional ruling that User:Herschelkrustofsky be required to refrain from calling named individuals "fascists," particularly those who are not Wikipedians and not present to defend themselves, unless there is evidence that they belong to a fascist organisation or have espoused views generally accepted as fascist. I refer to his repeated description of an Australian Member of Parliament, Michael Danby, as (to quote just the most recent example) "Australia's most outspokenly fascist Member of Parliament, Michael Danby." This is untrue and grossly offensive, and may also expose Wikipedia to action for defamation. I think fairness dictates that if I am to be censured for calling Herschelkrustofsky a slanderer, he should be required to cease being one. Adam 00:21, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Adam, your characterizations of LaRouche are untrue and grossly offensive, and yet you insist that you have every right in the world to put them in a Wikipedia article, and then get it protected. I have limited my comments about your boss to these talk pages, and I have provided ample evidence for my assertions. I must say, that you have more than your share of nerve to complain about it. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:36, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have not described LaRouche as a fascist or an anti-Semite in the article, only reported that other people have described him as such, which is a fact. LaRouche and you both know that people who bang on about Zionist conspiracies are liable to be called fascists and anti-Semites, because that is the standard rhetoric of fascists and anti-Semites. For the record, I don't think he is a fascist. I do think he is an anti-Semite, or at least was one in the 1970s and 80s: as noted in the article, he seems to have moderated his views in recent years. Danby, on the other hand, is a mainstream social democrat, has never done or said anything which could be reasonably described as fascist, and has never to my knowledge been called a fascist by anyone except you. Your "evidence" for this charge is specious crap as I'm sure even you know perfectly well. This is a deliberate and baseless slander by you, and I think you should be required to desist from it. Adam 01:37, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To base an entire Wikipedia article on defamation-for-hire produced by Dennis King, amounts to using King as a sock puppet.


 * This tired old whinge has been investigated and rejected by the Arbitration Committee whose judgement you yourself asked for. Adam 07:03, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

And because I am an obliging sort, I will provide further documentation that Danby is a fascist, but I will do it at Talk:Michael Danby, where it may be more appropriate. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:00, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have created a new article, Australian anti-terrorism legislation, 2004, to provide some background for some of this discussion. Adam 07:03, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Read this quick, it'll probably get deleted: Lyndon LaRouche/parody

Oh, grow the fuck up already!