Talk:Mírzá ʻAbbás Núrí

Atiya Ruhi
The correct transliteration of her name is `Attiyyih Ruhi, in case you want to search for her name elsewhere. The page of her biography of Subh-i-Azal is no more than a personal web page. It has no publishing information, no dates, no sources, no information about the author. Moreover, a search for her name came up with the Bayanic site, this wikipedia page, and nothing else. A search for "`Attiyyih Ruhi" came up with this, which may not be her. Can you tell me why I shouldn't delete it as a source? It's not verifiable, and I could likewise create a webpage stating that Mirza Buzurg invented the helicopter, and it would have just as much scholarly worth. Cuñado  -  Talk  23:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems like the bayanic.com website does not pass Wikipedia's reliable sources guidelines. A reliable source is usually one that has been checked by others (usually if you have an ISBN, ISSN, newspapers):
 * "Publications with teams of fact-checkers, reporters, editors, lawyers, and managers — like the New York Times or The Times of London — are likely to be reliable, and are regarded as reputable sources for the purposes of Wikipedia."
 * But personal websites are not reliable:
 * "At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites, weblogs (blogs), bulletin boards, and Usenet posts, which are not acceptable as sources."
 * It seems like bayanic.com could be used for a source for the current Bayani movement, and even then with caution:
 * "A personal website or blog may be used only as a primary source, i.e., when we are writing about the subject or owner of the website. But even then we should proceed with great caution and should avoid relying on information from the website as a sole source. This is particularly true when the subject is controversial, or has no professional or academic standing."
 * and
 * "Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution, although political bias is not in itself a reason not to use a source. Widely acknowledged extremist political or religious websites — for example, those belonging to Stormfront, Hamas, or the Socialist Workers Party — should never be used as sources for Wikipedia, except as primary sources i.e. in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group, but even then should be used with great caution, and should not be relied upon as a sole source." -- Jeff3000 23:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Moving disputed reference here until resolved: Cuñado   -  Talk  23:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Another source, the great-great-granddaughter of Mírzá Burzurg, Atiyya Ruhi, disagrees and writes that he lost his government position due to a fifth, simultaneous marriage with the Shah's daughter, who was his calligraphy student. 


 * Fine, then you won't object if I go through and remove every thing that comes out of Shoghi's mouth from all the sites. Since he is a Partisan political and religious source ?  Or are you going to allow ANY kind of balance in this pov articles? Removing is inappropriate and only serves pov values, so I'm reverting. Wjhonson 00:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This quote from Shoghi Effendi is consistant with his views of politics:


 * "We should -- every one of us -- remain aloof, in heart and in mind, in words and in deeds, from the political affairs and disputes of the Nations and of Governments. We should keep ourselves away from such thoughts. We should have no political connection with any of the parties and should join no faction of these different and warring sects."


 * (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 56)


 * -LambaJan 00:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This page is about her OWN great-great-grandfather. Since she has access to primary materials that we do not, I should think that would qualify her as a primary source on the matter. Once more pov does not mean parroting what the HOJ has approved. These are not pages for hagiographies. Wjhonson 00:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * And Jeff I am not using her as a sole source, you can see there are two sources. That is called balance.  It's neutral.  Disallowing any other point-of-view is not neutral, its pov. Wjhonson 00:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * And furthermore, what could possibly be her motive for lying about her own ancestor? This story does not further the "bayanic" cause against the baha'is one bit. Wjhonson 00:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Finally look at this additional source


 * "One of them being Bahá'u'lláh's father who was on intimate terms with the late Chief Minister. Mirza Aqasi first dismissed Mirza Buzurg from the post of Governor of Borujerd and Bakhtiari and later through various schemes attempted to harm him. His next move was to persuade and force Zia'u'l Saltanih, the daughter of Fath-i- Ali Shah, one of the wives of Mirza Buzurg, to divorce him. In payment of the large dowery of this lady Mirza Buzurg was forced to vacate and sell this House as well as all the adjacent houses." Wjhonson 00:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If there is something that you dispute, you're welcome to remove it to the talk page and discuss. In this case I'm questioning the source. I can even question whether the author is really his great-great-granddaughter. Maybe the whole bayanic.com site is run by Christian evangelists who are trying to defame the Baha'i Faith. I am fully capable of putting up a website that says the same. I can claim to be the official site of the Bayani people, and make up my own doctrines and policies and claims and counter-claims. That site is only useful in stating that it exists, and not much more.


 * The reference to Mirza Buzurg marrying the Shah's daughter was not what I was trying to dispute (although I honestly don't know much about him). You presented Ruhi's reason for the expulsion (marriage) next to the reason presented in Baha'i sources (purge) and they were not in agreement. It does sound like the planetbahai.org site was wrong in saying that he kept his estates. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  00:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wjhonson, in general I appreciate your effort to get things into an NPOV form factor in the Baha'i related pages. As Baha'is write most of the pages, there are definite intrinsic things we don't see in our own edits. I think the Baha'i editors are doing better in trying to reference things as well. In general we try to reference using non-Baha'i references, except for where we are stating Baha'i belief (i.e. Baha'is believe in Progressive Revelation) and then we use the Baha'i writings of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, etc as references. I, also, understand your reluctance at accepting Baha'i sources for controversial points in the history of the Babi/Baha'i Faith, and thus for things like the Mirza Yahya Subh-i-Azal page (where the Baha'i POV is negative toward it), we (mostly MARussellPESE) have tried to use mostly non-Baha'i sources. At the same time, I think you can understand the Baha'i hesitation towards works were much of their basis is put down the Baha'i Faith/understanding. Thus finding sources that come from a neutral 3rd party source might be more appropriate. My above comment about bayanic.com was not necessarily for this topic, or your particular edit in this page, but in general. I don't see much of a problem in this page. -- Jeff3000 02:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * To address LambdaJan I think you are missing the point. The point is not whether Shoghi was political, but rather the question of the nature of his own writings in reference to npov encyclopaedia articles.  In particular Baha'i/Bayani conflicts.  Shoghi's writings cannot be used as the final word on points of conflict.  If there is no independent, third-party (meaning a non-Baha'i) who can be mustered to speak on an issue, then the best we can do with the sources is to present both Baha'i and Bayani sources and let people make up their own minds.  I have no problem in someone even adding disclaimers and counter-disclaimers.  In general my approach is the bigger the better.  Burying details is not a scholarly approach to the issues.


 * Now Jeff I really do not think the biography referenced has a main point of *putting down* Baha'is. It is simply a matter-of-fact biography about her great-grandfather.  If points in it conflict with what some Baha'is believe, that shouldn't be buried but brought out, so that we can add to the general knowledge of the issue.  Perhaps certain authors, had something a bit wrong.  I have more quotes I've found which imply that Subh-i-Azal inherited property, so evidently the family wasn't completely destitute.  But the implication is that in the two sources I've brought forth that the Shah's daughter was definitely involved in some fashion and that appears to be a marriage.  How exactly that occured and was ended may be debated, but the main issue shouldn't be hidden simply because some people might be unaware of it or embarrassed by the implications if any.  (I'm really not aware that this story is scandalous so I have no idea why anyone would object to it.) Wjhonson 02:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The issue I had was over the reason of his expulsion from office. Islamic law permits 4 wives and no more, so if he had a ton of wives then that's the basis of the scandalous nature of it. Like I said I don't know much about Mirza Buzurg and he is not a significant historical figure in the Baha'i Faith, so forgive me if I'm still learning about the details of his life. If he was married to the Shah's daughter then I think that's an interesting point to be added. I tried to look for third party sources (not Baha'i or Azali) to Muhammad Shah's coming to power and found nothing at all about his life, only books written in Persian.


 * My first thought was to leave the reference to Ruhi and add a note that she cites no sources, and it is un-published and maintained on a personal website. But I think if those kinds of warnings are necessary then it might as well be deleted, so I removed it. If you want to add an appropriate disclaimer to it I think I could live with having it added back in. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  03:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * OK thank you for your co-operation. I've added the text back, with a disclaimer.  If you think the disclaimer is too tame, feel free to add to it.  Anyone interested can read what the alleged descendent has to say for themselves anyway.  I've removed the overt reference to whether the behaviour was scandalous or not ('fifth simultaneous').  I'd like to add the other reference, since it adds another issue to the mix as well.  And then I'll find the note that Subh-i-Azel inherited a 'castle' and add that at some point. Wjhonson 04:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Excerpt from Balyuzi
I finally came across a Baha'i source which goes into painstaking detail about Mirza Buzurg. There is enough hear to fill out his biographical page. And look at the boldened part in the middle! It turns out he did marry several wives, and one of them was the Shah's daughter, and she was the cause of "his undoing". Shows what I know. I'm posting the entire selection here for convenience, it's from a notable Hand of the Cause whose writing is pretty authoritative. Cuñado  -  Talk  08:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * "Mirza Buzurg prospered in the service of the State, until the days of Muhammad Shah (reigned 1834-48), when he encountered the ill will of that monarch's notorious grand vizier, Haji Mirza Aqasi, and lost his position and much of his considerable wealth.


 * " The Family of Bahá'u'lláh


 * "MIRZA Buzurg, Vazir-i-Nuri, the father of Bahá'u'lláh, had seven wives, three of whom were concubines. It was his father, Rida-Quli Big, who arranged his first marriage to a relative of the family, named Khan-Nanih, before Mirza Buzurg left the district of Nur in Mazindaran to make his fortune in Tihran. Two sons, Mirza Aqa, the elder, and Mirza Muhammad-Hasan, were born of this union. Bahá'u'lláh mentions an occasion in His childhood, in the Persian Lawh-i-Ra'ís - a Tablet addressed to 'Ali Pasha, the Ottoman grand vizier - when, during the nuptial fete of His brother, Mirza Aqa, who did not have long to live, His attention was drawn to a puppet show. Afterwards, Mirza Buzurg gave the widow in marriage to his second son, Mirza Muhammad-Hasan. This lady was a cousin of Mirza Aqa Khan-i-Nuri, the second grand vizier of Násiri'd-Dín Sháh.


 * "Mirza Buzurg's second wife was Khadijih Khanum, who had been married once before and was widowed. She had one son and two daughters by her first marriage, namely, Mirza Muhammad-'Ali, Sakinih Khanum and Sughra Khanum. Mirza Buzurg took Khadijih Khanum as his wife and wedded her daughter, Sakinih Khanum, to his younger brother, Mirza Muhammad. Khadijih Khanum was the mother of Bahá'u'lláh (Mirza Husayn-'Ali). The first-born of that marriage was a daughter, Sarih Khanum; she is generally known as 'Ukht', Arabic for sister, because Bahá'u'lláh has thus referred to her. The next was a son, Mirza Mihdi, who died in his father's lifetime; and Mirza Husayn-'Ali (Bahá'u'lláh) was the third-born. The fourth was another son, Mirza Musa, entitled Aqay-i-Kalim later years, and the fifth was another daughter, Nisa' Khanum, who was married eventually to Mirza Majid-i-Ahi, a secretary of the Russian Legation.


 * "The third wife of Mirza Buzurg was Kulthum Khanum-i-Nuri, by whom he had five children. The first was a daughter, Shah-Sultan Khanum (also called 'Izziyih Khanum), who became a firm supporter of Mirza Yahya (Subh-i-Azal). Next came three sons: Mirza Taqi, a poet with the sobriquet Parishan, who became a Shaykhi much opposed to Bahá'u'lláh; Mirza Rida-Quli, who earned the designation 'Haji' by his pilgrimage to Mecca, and who kept apart from Bahá'u'lláh, even trying to conceal the fact of their relationship (see p.443), although his wife, Maryam, was greatly devoted to Him; and the third son, Mirza Ibrahim, who also died in his father's lifetime. The fifth child of that marriage of Mirza Buzurg was another daughter, Fatimih-Sultan Khanum, who also chose to follow Mirza Yahya into the wilderness.


 * "The next three wives of Mirza Buzurg were concubines. The first was Kuchik Khanum of Kirmanshah, the mother of Mirza Yahya. The second was a Georgian lady, Nabat Khanum, and by her Mirza Buzurg had another daughter, Husniyyih Khanum, of whom not much is known. The last concubine, Turkamaniyyih, was the mother of Mirza Muhammad-Quli who was greatly devoted to Bahá'u'lláh.


 * "And then came Mirza Buzurg's marriage to a daughter of Fath-'Ali Shah. This lady, who was entitled Diya'u's-Saltanih[1] - like her husband, a noted calligraphist - overbearing, haughty and grasping.
 * "Their marriage was to bring the Vazir-i-Nuri nothing but misfortune and, in the end, to prove his undoing. 
 * [1 According to I'timadu's-Saltanih's Muntazim-i-Nasiri (Tihran 1300, p. 161), her name was Shah Bigum.]


 * "Haji Mirza Aqasi, the Prime Minister, was both vain and vengeful, and, as mentioned in the preceding chapter, he was antagonistic to Mirza Buzurg. One reason which prompted his enmity was Mirza Buzurg's particular friendship with the celebrated Qá'im-Maqam, Mirza Abu'l-Qasim of Farahan. These two thought very highly of each other, as evidenced by letters contained in the Compendium of Letters by the great Minister.[1] In June 1835 the Qá'im-Maqam was treacherously put to death by Muhammad Shah. The very manner of his fall from power and his execution, which was followed by the rise to high office of Haji Mirza Aqasi, left no doubt in the mind of Mirza Buzurg that the sad fate of his dear friend was to be attributed to the low cunning of the monster who was now in the saddle, and he could not hide his feelings of horror and disgust. One of his letters condemnatory of Haji Mirza Aqasi fell into the hands of the Grand Vizier, who, before long, retaliated with force. As soon as he conveniently could, he struck at Mirza Buzurg. First, he had Mirza Buzurg dismissed from the governorship of Burujird and Luristan. This post, which included control over a sizeable part of the Bakhtiyari territory - a very disturbed and rebellious region - has been entrusted to Mirza Buzurg by his great friend, Mirza Abu'l-Qasim, the Qá'im-Maqam, soon after the accession of Muhammad Shah to the throne. A document exists in the handwriting of Muhammad Shah himself, commending and praising the services rendered by Mirza Buzurg in this capacity.[2] Next, Haji Mirza Aqasi stopped Mirza Buzurg's annual allowance. Then, he did all in his power to disturb the relationship between Mirza Buzurg and his last wife, Diya'u's-Saltanih, the daughter of Fath-'Ali Shah. Through her nephew, Firaydun Mirza, the Farman-Farma - who had been his favourite for the governorship of the province of Fars - he induced Diya'u's-Saltanih to seek and obtain divorce from her husband. Mirza Buzurg was already in dire financial straits, for he had a very large family, and the yearly allowance, which was rightly his, was no longer available because of the malice of Haji Mirza Aqasi. He had had to sell a part of his properties and mortgage others, including the complex of houses in Tihran in which he and his family resided. For a while, these houses had passed out of his possession, until he had bought them back through his son, Mirza Husayn-'Ali (Bahá'u'lláh). Mirza Buzurg had the added misfortune of losing the better part of the palatial mansion which he had built and richly furnished in Takur, by the descent of floods upon the town.
 * [1 This Compendium was compiled and edited, in later years, at the instance of Haji Farhad Mirza, the Mu'tamidu'd-Dawlih, a brother of Muhammad-Shah. It has been printed several times, under the title Munshi'at-Qá'im Maqam, to provide a guide to and an example of excellence of style and diction.]
 * [2 It appears that for a time Mirza Buzurg was also vazir of this province - the official responsible for the collection of taxes. Mirza Buzurg seems to have been particularly successful in organizing and levying taxes among the unruly and remote Luri tribesmen - a feat that eluded most of his predecessors and successors in this post. In his 'Notes on a March from Zohab to Khuzistan', Sir Henry Rawlinson remarks: 'The valuation of katir [the unit of taxation, usually about 100 tumans] varies . . . according to the state of the province; but under the late Wazir, Mirza Buzurg, who administered the revenues with eminent success for about ten years, it was raised to the rate of 200 old tomans, or 333 1/3 of the present currency; the 120 katirs [being the assessment of the tribes of Pish-Kuh] were, therefore, equivalent to 40,000 tomans, and the amount annually realized from Pish-Kuh alone rather exceeded than fell short of this sum. [Rawlinson then sets out the classification of the tribes and the revenue system as observed by Mirza Buzurg] . . . The system of revenue of Pish-Kuh is very simple; when the 120 katirs have been duly distributed among the tribes . . . each subdivision determines the amount of share to be paid by the different camps of which it is composed . . . But in a wild country like this, where many of the tribes live in a state of open rebellion . . . the governor would certainly fail in his contract to the crown, unless he had indirect means of raising an extraordinary revenue to make up for many defalcations. Mirza Buzurg, therefore, introduced an extensive system of fees and fines; and, where robberies and murder were of almost daily occurrence he did not want opportunities of exaction; indeed he is said to have realized about 20,000 tomans annually in this manner, and that, too, without cruelty or injustice.'1]


 * "Diya'u's-Saltanih, with the backing of the Grand Vizier and her powerful nephew, Firaydun Mirza, forced through her divorce. But the marriage settlement was of such proportions that the Vazir-i-Nuri, enmeshed as he was in financial difficulties, could not pay it immediately. Diya'u's-Saltanih then had Mirza Buzurg imprisoned in his own house, and set men to beat him daily and torture him so as to extort the money from him. At last, Mirza Buzurg was obliged to sell, once again, his complex of houses in Tihran, and part with the valuable carpets and other furnishings which they contained. In the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Bahá'u'lláh refers to the sale of these houses:


 * "'In the early days we all lived in one house, which later on was sold at auction, for a negligible sum, and the two brothers, Farman-Farma [Firaydun Mirza] and Hisamu's-Saltanih [Sultan-Murad Mirza], purchased it and divided it between themselves. After this occurred, We separated from Our brother.[1] He established his residence close to the entrance of Masjid-i-Shah [the Mosque of the Shah], whilst We lived near the Gate of Shimiran [Shimran].2
 * [1 This brother mentioned by Bahá'u'lláh was Mirza Rida-Quli. (HMB)]


 * "Kulthum Khanum, the third wife of Mirza Buzurg and mother of Haji Mirza Rida-Quli, had inherited the house 'close to the entrance of Masjid-i-Shah' from her father. Mirza Buzurg moved to that house. Mirza Husayn-'Ali (Bahá'u'lláh) rented the house 'near the Gate' of Shimran, and took His mother, His wife, His other step-mothers and the rest of His brothers and sisters to live with Him. This rented house remained His residence for the remaining years He spent in Iran. It was near the Madrisiy-i-Mirza Salih, the theological college where Mulla Husayn-i-Bushru'i would stay when bearing the message of the Báb to Tihran. The children of Bahá'u'lláh - 'Abdu'l-Bahá (the Most Great Branch), Bahá'íyyih Khanum (the Greatest Holy Leaf) and Mirza Mihdi (the Purest Branch) - were all born in this rented house; their mother was his first wife, Asiyih Khanum.


 * "After the storms subsided, Mirza Buzurg made an effort to regain the houses which he had had to sell under duress 'for a negligible sum'. A document exists in the handwriting of Bahá'u'lláh, drawn up for the purpose of eliciting from those in the know their testimony to the fact that the sale of the houses had taken place under unlawful pressure. But it did not produce the desired effect and no restitution was made.[1]
 * [1 Two other documents are also extant, issued by two of the noted divines of the capital, one the brother of the Imam-Jum'ih, pronouncing the illegality of the sale by auction of the houses of Mirza Buzurg-i-Nuri.]


 * "Mirza Buzurg then decided to retire to 'Iraq, but death supervened. He passed away in 1839, and his body was taken to 'Iraq and buried at Najaf, where the tomb of 'Ali - the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, the first apostolic Imam and the fourth caliph - is situated. He was survived by seven sons and five daughters. Apart from the Central Figure of this history, we shall, time and again, meet in its course other sons of this remarkable and highly-respected Nuri minister. Manuscripts exist in his superb and much-admired handwriting, in various collections both in and outside of Iran. There is one such scroll in the International Archives of the Bahá'í Faith on Mount Carmel.


 * "Diya'u's-Saltanih, after obtaining her divorce and receiving her marriage settlement, married Haji Mas'ud-i-Garmrudi, who held the post of Foreign Minister of Iran for a considerable time. They had a daughter, named Shahanshah Bigum, who embraced the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh; always she deplored what her mother had done to Mirza Buzurg. Of the two daughters of Shahanshah Bigum herself, one was married to Ibn-i-Asdaq, one of the four Hands of the Cause of God appointed by Bahá'u'lláh, and the other to Intizamu's-Saltanih, who was greatly devoted to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, and whose sons rose high in the service of the State.
 * (H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah - The King of Glory, p. 12-18)

Dangling modifier?
English is not my first language. When I read this in the article, I understand it as Bahá'u'lláh and his siblings are the children of the marriage between Mirzá Buzurgs younger brother Mirzá Muhammad and Sakinih Khanum: Mírzá Buzurg took Khadíjih Khánum as his wife and wedded her daughter, Sakinih Khánum, to his younger brother, Mírzá Muḥammad. The first-born of that marriage was a daughter, Sarih Khánum (generally referred to as 'Ukht', Arabic for sister, in Bahá'u'lláh's writings). The next was a son, Mírzá Mihdi, who died in his father's lifetime; and Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí (Bahá'u'lláh) was the third-born. The fourth was another son, Mírzá Músá, entitled Áqáy-i-Kalím later years, and the fifth was another daughter, Nisá' Khánum --Caspiax (talk) 04:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 00:43, 30 April 2016 (UTC)