Talk:M24 Sniper Weapon System

Infobox
Replaced the current template with the recently standarised Infobox: Template:Infobox created by the WikiProject_Military_history/Weaponry task force. Deon Steyn 08:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy Potential
Despite their similar designations, M118, M118 Special Ball, and M118LR are not made to the same specifications. M118 Special Ball is the poorest performer of the three. The superior M118LR is the current standard. --D.E. Watters (talk) 15:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the M24's Military Specification MIL-R-71126(AR) dated 24 September 1992:

3.15.7 Targeting and accuracy. The rifle shall achieve the dispersion set forth below when fired from a Government approved machine rest. The average mean radius shall be less than or equal to the values stated below. The minimum rate of fire for conducting this test shall be three rounds per minute.

Range Average Mean Radius (AMR) 200 yards 1.3 inches 300 yards 1.9 inches 200 meters 1.4 inches

This is with the previous standard M118 Special Ball, which I've already stated is the poorest performer of the M118 series. --D.E. Watters (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've added this to the article. Now let's see what this guy has to say about it... —  DP 5  16:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

No Russian blogs
Sorry but we don't accept original research at all, let alone in Russian. You will have to find reliable sources that we can verify. Your site will not do. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 04:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Mean Radius/Spread
Apparently, there isn't really a fundamental relationship between spread and mean radius. The extreme spread is apparently typically about three times what the mean radius is, but it could be much higher, which is why US ammunition that's certified for Overhead Fire has both a mean radius requirement (not to exceed 6" at 600 yards) and an extreme spread requirement (not to exceed 25" at 600 yards). Perhaps that template that was removed was marking No original research? Banaticus (talk) 04:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Apparently, there _is_ really a fundamental relationship between spread and mean radius. Bullet dispersion is normal distribution. But noobs dont know this. Thats why wikipedia is full of bullshit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.140.192 (talk) 07:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no formula that I can find to convert from Average Mean Radius (AMR) to Extreme Spread. If you take "...The barrel shall be considered worn out when the average mean radius, calculated using five targets of ten shots each..." from MIL-R-71126(AR) to be the method of determining AMR and Extreme Spread is the distance between the two furthest shots in a shot group, then AMR and Extreme Spread can't be mathematically derived from each other with reliability. So I have removed the statement "Converting from average mean radius (AMR) to extreme spread gives value 6.1 inches (150 mm) for 10 shot groups for 300 yards (270 m) or 1.94 MOA. While some batches of M118 Special Ball can give sub-MOA accuracy for 3 shot groups with the M24, this is not guaranteed." Until a formula can be shown to make the conversion from AMR to Extreme Spread with the accuracy claimed by the statement.Fordag (talk) 19:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, there is one useful reference, namely: "Statistical measures of accuracy for riflemen and missile engineers" by Frank E. Grubbs.  It is based on Monte Carlo statistical modeling and while it isn't pedantically correct for a single target, it does work out across averaged samples.  In addition to between various dispersion methods (MR, ES, etc), it also allows variation in sample sizes too, so you can make statistical comparisons of samples of {n=10 Mean Radius} against {n=5 Extreme Spread} and so forth.  -hh (talk) 03:21, 19 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, a follow-up to the above, referencing Grubbs: the 'statistical conversion' of MR(n=10) to ES(n=10) is the following formula:   MR{n=10}*(3.805/1.189) = ES{n=10} ... this simplifies to:  MR * 3.200 = ES (but note:  only valid when n=10 for both)


 * Similarly, to convert a Mean Radius to ES with sample sizes changing from n=10 to n=3, the formula is:  MR{n=10}*(1.693/1.189) = ES{n=3} ... which simplifies to:  MR{n=10} * 1.424 = ES{n=3}


 * Astute readers will note that the value of 1.189 in the denominator didn't change...this because it is Grubb's 'Mean Value' for for a ten shot MR, which is found on Table 5. Similarly, the numerators are for the 'Mean Value' numbers for Extreme Spread (Table 6) at two different sample sizes, which also means that we have the numbers needed if we wanted to convert ES between n=10 and n=3, namely:  ES{n=10}*(1.693/3.805) = ES{n=3} ... which simplifies to:  ES{n=10} * 0.445 = ES{n=3}


 * FYI, the page numbers within Grubbs does vary depending on the Edition; for example, Table 5 is on page 15 in the First Edition which I used during the M24 SWS program, whereas I now also have a Third Edition and Table 5 is now found on page 20. I've not laid out the two editions side-by-side to determine exactly why they vary.  -hh (talk) 20:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

69.141.140.192 - "The normal distribution can be used to describe, at least approximately, any variable that tends to cluster around the mean." You need to demonstrate a formula that makes an exact, not approximate, conversion from AMR to extreme spread for it to be relevant. A "best guess" which is what normal distribution and variance will get you doesn't make for a useful conversion. This being an English language article the references and formula need to be shown in English.Fordag (talk) 06:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

You can not convert from AMR to MOA accuracy.
Yeah! And those who can convert are called morons, like guys from amsaa. Only wikipedia users who didnt read any basics in external ballictics have true knowledge.

To note, "converting from AMR to MOA accuracy" is sign of ignorance. It is possible to convert from ARM to extreme spread for given group size. AMR or extreme spread you can express in MOA.

Pages in Russian are not acceptable sources
Right! All who dont speak English are retarded. For example similar self published work with less accurate calculations are far more reliable cos it is in English.

== If there are questions on the development of the original M24 SWS please feel free to contact me. I was the project manager, actually the weapon system matrix manager for the M24 SWS while stationed at Rock Island Arsenal. Naplesbear (talk) 02:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC) ==

Barrel length is 24" or 26"???
The article and the source says 660.4mm(24") but 24" is 609mm and 660.4mm is 26". So someone on the source has made an English to metric conversion error. What is the actual barrel length?  I assume since it's an American weapon the English measurement is correct.  This Remington military sales website lists it as 24" without metric designation. So since 660mm is 26 inches and not the 24" I'm removing it from the description. 97.85.168.22 (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Scope specifications
The paragraph in the lede talking about how scopes are specified does not belong in this article, though it could be put in an article about scopes. Only the last sentence applies to this topic.

67.157.20.47 (talk) 19:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

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