Talk:Macedonian Patriotic Organization

MPO Luben Dimitroff ?
I see that the picture of the document claims that it comes from a section of MPO called "Luben Dimitroff", however the actual MPO headquarters on their web page http://www.macedonian.org/Media/falsetribune.asp claims that there is no such entity as MPO "Luben DImitroff" and that such an entity already tried to falsify their newspaper "Macedonian Tribune". I propose that the image is removed as a possible fake, not representing the MPO. What do other people think? In extreme case I can contact the gentlemen from the MPO central committee themselves and ask for their stance on the scan presented here. Capricornis (talk) 02:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the picture since the MPO's leaders themselves claim that the MPO "Luben Dimitrof" (which was the entity that published the pamphlet on the picture) are not connected to them and are impostors which published a falsified version of their newspaper 'Macedonian Tribune' See MPO's statement on their web site : http://www.macedonian.org/Media/falsetribune.asp. Capricornis (talk) 17:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

MPO pro-bulgarian? - not really, at least not for a long time now
I have just discovered this site http://www.makedonskatribuna.com/ which is the falsified newspaper of the real MPO (who's web site is a www.macedonian.org), by the self-proclaimed MPO "Luben Dimitroff". This self proclaimed "MPO Luben Dimitroff" has no connection with the central MPO which consists of more than 20 organizations around US and Canada, and it is very pro-bulgarian, unlike the real MPO which maybe in the (far) past exposed pro-bulgarian views but in the last 20 or so years is staunchly pro-macedonian and espouses and fights for the views of the current Republic of Macedonia. Just browse their site www.macedonian.org and see for yourself amongst the current articles if there is even a mention of bulgaria, while all of them support the current Republic of Macedonia. This article needs serious re-write. Capricornis (talk) 17:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Jingby, don't edit at the same time as me
This creates confusion in the article. You are welcome to edit everything you think appropriate later. Capricornis (talk) 18:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Jingby, do not delete the Luben Dimitroff part
That is essential for the article as otherwise uninformed readers will confuse the pro-bulgarian false group and the real MPO Capricornis (talk) 18:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Describe the situation with your simple own words, please. Not copy - paste. Jingby (talk) 18:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Quotes of normal length are allowed in wikipedia with proper attribution. This one does not differ from myriads of others here.

I have a problem with your claim of 'splintering' of the MPO though. As you can see from the MPO's web site http://www.macedonian.org/About/structure.asp, there are plenty of MPO city organizations accross north america, including the MPO "Victory" in Toronto, thus there can be no talk about splintering of the Macedonian and Canadian MPO. The Luben Dimitroff is a stand alone pro-bulgarian group that want to appropriate the name and reputation of the real MPO. I am removing your last sentences in the history part as it is pure speculation on your part with no sources whatsoever. Capricornis (talk) 18:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

By this logic we have to ask now which IMRO is the original, the Bulgarian party or this one in RoM. Jingby (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

No, not really. The MPO has been and is as monolithic as it started. There are no splinters. There is only a case of an isolated group in Toronto who appropriated the name of the organization and its newspaper (which by the way is coprighted as the MPO said in their statement above) for its own goals. There is no place to talk about splinters here. Capricornis (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Using unavailable printed materials as sources?
Jingby, I admire your personal library (which seems mostly to be made of pro-bulgarian books on Macedonia), but if your are going to quote sources, please do quote something that the rest of us can easily verify. Otherwise anyone could make up book titles and authors. I am going to check both books with the library of congress, and if they don't exist there, then they are probably fake. Please also write the ISBN of the books so it will be easier to verify them. thanks Capricornis (talk) 19:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Here you are. Jingby (talk) 19:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I thought promacedonia.com was banned from wikipedia as being ultra-nationalist bulgarian website, but at least this is a starting point :) Capricornis (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

MPO Luben DImitroff
Jingby can you read http://www.macedonian.org/Media/falsetribune.asp? MPO themselves say THERE IS NO SUCH ENTITY MPO "Luben Dimitroff" They are not an 'old branch', they are impostors. Mind the difference Capricornis (talk) 18:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

And what is this source about MPO "Luben Dimitroff" - Encyclopedia of Canada's peoples, Bulgarians - Paul R. Magocsi, Multicultural History, p. 292 -, University of Toronto Press, 1999, ISBN 0802029388 It exists more than 70 years. This is political scandal and has nothing to do with the existing of the branch. I will readd this encyclopeadic info. Jingby (talk) 18:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

One of the oldest incorporated Bulgarian organizations in Toronto is Macedonian Patriotic Organization (MPO) Luben Dimitroff which dates back to 1944. One will see the pictures of past conventions of the Macedonian Patriotic Organization on the walls of the churches. The archives of the three Macedono-Bulgarian churches contain the names of the founding fathers: Tenekeff, Bitove, Sholdoff (Stavros), Nakeff, Tzafaroff, Markoff, Koroloff, Meanchoff, Goushleff, Maneff, Stoynoff. In St. James cemetery on Parliament Street one will find the history of the Bulgarian people written on monuments. There one will find the names of the villages Gabresh, Drenovine, Banitza, Smurdesh and many others. All villages of the geographical region called Macedonia are now under Greek jurisdiction. At present the Canadians of Bulgarian background in and around Toronto number about twenty thousand. Most of them attend the three Macedono-Bulgarian churches. The Bulgarians in Mississauga are building a new Bulgarian church to be called St. Dimiter Solonski. Jingby (talk) 19:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The first MPO branch in Canada was Pravda (Justice), at SS Cyril and Methody Church in Toronto. The second, also in Toronto, Pobeda (Victory), resulted from a split in the church community in 1941 and centred around St George Church. In the 1960s this group was renamed Luben Dimitrov, to honour the founding editor in chief of the Macedonian Tribune. By the 1970s its young members rejected the goal of an independent Macedonia and proclaimed that the MPO should aim at the reunion of Macedonia and Bulgaria. Those who disagreed reintroduced the name Pobeda for their organization. Jingby (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Celebrations of historical events and people include 24 May, the day of SS Cyril and Methody, who created the Cyrillic alphabet. Since 1927 branches of the Macedonian Patriotic Organization (MPO) have organized remembrance days for the Ilinden uprising of August 1903, for which the three local MPOs in Toronto, Pravda, Pobeda, and Luben Dimitrov, abandoned their political differences. Jingby (talk) 19:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Even so, it is still just one chapter, in a town where there are another two proper MPO chapters, and MPO has another 15 across the americas. This can hardly be called a splinter of the entire or even of the Canadian MPO. Also I assume the above are quotes from the Encyclopedia you mention? It is not clear Capricornis (talk) 02:08, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The false Macedonian Tribune in Bulgarian language?
From their home page macedoniantribune.com it doesn't look like the false tribune is in the contemporary Bulgarian language. The writing is definitely the one used in Bulgaria before WWII, before it was modernized, the language too. I think I wrote that the newspaper is in 'old Bulgarian' language/script, though this usually refers to the medieval Bulgarian. What is the proper name for this pre-WWII Bulgarian, as it obviously it is not the contemporary one? Capricornis (talk) 17:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Capricornis, its called pre-reformed Bulgarian orthography. Gurther (talk) 17:41, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Large part of the later additions to this article are not worthy of encyclopedia
Especially about Spaska & co.? What english encyclopedia reader would care about the petty squablings of two minor balkan nations? This article is about the essence of MPO, not the hot political controversy of the day. I have edited the article to trim the non-encyclopedic content. Capricornis (talk) 01:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

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Sept 2023
given this is the only article you edit (for six year now), one might suspect a conflict of interest here. Nonetheless, please read up on WP:RS. All assertions must be backed by reliable sources, please do not remove tags that request sources. Next, please understand that articles shouldn't be flooded with images; Wikimedia Commons exists. Next, please see WP:TOPIC - articles should stay on topic. The background you seek to keep in is not directly or even indirectly related to the MPO. Finally, please read WP:Wikipuffery. I see such language is an issue on this article. Thanks. -- Local hero talk 20:51, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The Background section is directly related to the activity of the Macedonian-Bulgarian emigration in the early 20th century, which eventually founded later the MPO. Then there were any Ethnic Macedonians in the US then, while the Greeks and Serbs had no part in this organization and are not connected to its creation. Jingiby (talk) 08:50, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem with the Background section is that it is poorly sourced and has tone issues. To be honest, the whole article needs a re-write, because it does not read as encyclopedic and relies inappropriately on primary sources too. So its removal was justified. I'm not against having a Background section, but it needs to be adequately sourced and re-written. StephenMacky1 (talk) 11:32, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There is a good source about this issue which confirms as a whole the current text: Ilchev, Ivan. To the Land That Was Never Promised. Bulgarian Emigration to the United States in the Late 19th - Early 20th Century. in Immigration and Emigration in Historical Perspective (2007) ISBN:9788884924988, PLUS-Pisa University Press with Ann Katherine Isaacs as editor, pp. 119-140. Although, the author states: The history of the organization of the emigrants in the US and the creation of the first Bulgarian-Macedonian societies is touched upon only fleetingly as this problem is well researched in Bulgarian historiography. Jingiby (talk) 12:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way where is the problem with Christo Nizamoff, Веселин Трайков and Трендафил_Митев? Mitev by the way is a historian, the most prominent specialist on Macedonian-Bulgarian emigration in the USA and Canada. He had  specialized in Kyiv, St. Petersburg, Krakow, Southern Illinois and Stanford University. Traykov was of Macedonian origin. He studied history in Bucharest and Athens, after which he graduated Law at Sofia University. He has over 600 research publications. Jingiby (talk) 12:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Nizamoff's source is primary and the article already relies too much on primary sources. I have no issue with the rest. The secondary source you presented appears to be good and you can cite it. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:27, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't get why the Background section should discuss Macedonian Bulgarian organizations in general. This seems like it belongs on the Bulgarian Americans article if not already there. Are any of the organizations currently named in the Background section linked to the MPO (by sources that is, not by editor analysis)? -- Local hero talk 03:38, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, Trendafil's 2002 source appears to link it with the other organizations based on ideology and tradition. I can't comment on the 1995 source because I don't have access to it. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I recommend removing the sections which rely solely on primary sources. Unless there are secondary sources for them, there is really no use of them and the links are dead. StephenMacky1 (talk) 18:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I believe MPO Today, Identities, and MPO local chapters in their entirety should go, on that basis. Much of Advocacy for Macedonia as well (not even including the offline source which I cannot verify). Various chunks of the rest of the History section as well. -- Local hero talk 19:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The Miscellaneous section should go too. It only has one secondary source. The source about Lebamoff's interview is inaccessible, which can be potentially replaced with this source, if it's to be retained. I'll add content with secondary sources when I get free. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:53, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've removed the three sections I named, for now. Thanks in advance for checking for secondary sources. I didn't have much luck when looking for support for the assertions I tagged previously. -- Local hero talk 02:27, 14 September 2023 (UTC)