Talk:Madonna/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 20:10, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll give this a go, though with 314 references to sift through, it may take a few days. As a first port of call, I'll be looking at Featured article review/Madonna (entertainer)/archive1 and seeing if any of the problems listed there still exist, and if so, do they apply to the lesser standards at GAN (eg: a Fox News article may be bashed at FAC for not being a "prestige" source, but as far as GAN is concerned, if it's reliable and written about with a NPOV, it's okay). Watch this space. -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   20:10, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Checking links brings up 3 dead ones : #78, #121 and #243. Tried them several times and each one consistently reports an HTTP 500 error. -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   22:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * ✅ except for ref #121, for me it is working. 11Jorn talk


 * I'm a little concerned about a few of the negative or potentially upsetting comments that are currently attributable only to a single source. Is it really necessary to mention she saw her late mother's mouth sewn up, or that she was specifically asked to perform fellatio when attacked? For the former, I'd just trim the quote down (lengthy quotes run the risk of being a borderline copyvio), and for the latter I think just saying "she was returning from a rehearsal when she was attacked in an alleyway" will still convey the sentiment of vulnerability that we want to get across here.
 * ✅ omitted the mention of fellatio. The sentence even linked to an article on it, which is quite disheartening, I agree. And contains far too much potential as libel to be kept in, supported only by one source. --Thevampireashlee (talk) 16:46, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Obviously as far as images go, we can't use what we don't have, but for someone like Madonna, a selection of photos from, say 1984, 1990, 1998 and today will get across her desire to continually reinvent her image far quicker than any text could.


 * Reference 19 (Rolling Stone biography) doesn't mention the alternate title of "Truth or Dare" being "In Bed With Madonna". However, I think this should be very easy to source, as certainly the U.K. I've seen the phrase "In bed with 'x'" been used for other things as a pastiche / parody of the documentary style, such as In Bed With Chris Needham. I thought Louis Theroux did an "In bed with..." series, but it appears I'm confusing it with something else.


 * ✅. 11Jorn talk


 * Is Digital Spy really a reliable source? -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   15:39, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 3 (Time piece) is behind a firewall, so I can't check if it contains the assertions referenced in the article.
 * ✅ I've removed this as #4 supports this. Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 25 (Allmusic discography) doesn't mention how many weeks "Like A Virgin" was at number one. Chart Stats is good for resolving this sort of thing.
 * ✅ I've used a Billboard source. Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 32 (MTV awards piece) doesn't mention that her first MTV awards performance was "iconic"
 * The title of the article refers to the performances as iconic and goes on to describe other similar performances.


 * In the last paragraph of the "1982-85" section, "Madonna remained defiant and unapologetic" might want a citation - reference 44 (MusicoMania article) can be used for this


 * Reference 34 (asserting diamond certification of "Like A Virgin") doesn't seem to contain anything about this
 * ✅ What an awfully confusing site! It's a database of Gold & Platinum records - not Diamond! It's kind of useless as although the number of times Like A Virgin is made platinum means it is diamond, it's not explicit. I've removed it. Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Worth mentioning the Wembley gig on the "Who's That Girl" tour drew an audience of 70,000? Reference 50 can be used to cite this
 * ✅ Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The paragraph dealing with Pepsi sponsorship is cited to the Fox source. As it contains potentially controversial information, it may be worth finding a secondary source to back up some of the things stated here.
 * ✅ Added a NY Times source also. Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Be careful about citing tabloid stuff like People and The Daily Mail - in this case, I think you've done the right thing here by citing multiple sources and sticking to plain facts


 * The timescale for the "Blonde Ambition" tour (asserted here as four months) is not cited
 * Does it need sourcing? It's not really challenging. Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * For a good article, yes, it should be cited. Otherwise somebody could claim it was three months and start edit warring about it - unlikely, but possible. (And believe me, you'll never ceased to be amazed at what people will edit war about!) -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   16:24, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Reworded. Jennie | ☎ 17:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Exactly what is reference 75 ("Warner finds solace in farewell CD") citing?
 * I think it's a magazine/newspaper? Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Citation 81 does mention anything about Madonna dating Tony Ward. Per our BLP policy, this needs sourcing ASAP or removing.
 * ✅ I couldn't find a reliable source, I'll remove it. Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 81 does state that Vanilla Ice was strongly critical of "Sex" - is this worth adding to the relevant point in the article
 * ✅ Jennie | ☎ 16:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The reference for criticism for "Body Of Evidence" seems to come from user generated content on Rotten Tomatoes, which I think is hence unreliable. FWIW I don't dispute the claim - my then housemate went to see this when it was first released and stated it was probably the worst film he'd ever seen - but it does need a reliable source.
 * The collection of critic reviews can be found half way down the page, all of which show a negative reception. Jennie | ☎ 17:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 36 (Billboard chart stats) doesn't state how many weeks "Take A Bow" topped the charts for
 * ✅ I've replaced it. Jennie | ☎ 17:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 100 doesn't cite that she wore 370 different costumes on set
 * ✅ I've removed the exact number as it cannot be cited. Jennie | ☎ 17:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a quick status update on where we are - I've done everything up to 1997, and I would estimate there's about another six hours' work to get the review finished. I'll see if I can get a bit more done later today, and in the week. -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   11:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The reference to Madonna having the most number two hits wikilinks to List of Billboard Hot 100 chart achievements and milestones, but that section of the linked article no longer appears to exist
 * ✅ Re-linked Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 116 talks about "Ray Of Light" being used in the promotion of Windows XP - however this put against a sentence talking about the single's chart position
 * ✅ Replaced Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 123 (CNN article about "What It Feels Like For a Girl") is cited for the phrase "depicted Madonna committing murders and involved in car accidents", but the reference itself merely says "a crime and vandalism spree"
 * ✅ Replaced Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 129 cites the "Golden Raspberry" award for "Die Another Day", but it's not obvious from the link where this information is
 * ✅ Way too confusing, I removed it. Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 144 states the Re-Invention World Tour "a gross in the $120 million range", but the article states it earned $125 million
 * ✅ Reworded. Jennie | ☎ 20:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 150 is supposed to be describing "Confessions of a Dance Floor", but the reference seems to just talk more about the chart and sales statistics
 * Ref #144 is about Tsunami Aid, which Ref do you mean? Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Meant reference 152, sorry -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   16:24, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Removed this, couldn't cite it. Jennie | ☎ 17:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Worth mentioning that "Hung Up" samples "Gimme Gimme Gimme" heavily? The BBC source mentions it and goes into some depth about it
 * ✅ I've included this, surprised no one has already. Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 153 states the Confessions Tour grossed about $193.7 million, not £194.7 million as stated in the article
 * ✅ I've replaced it. Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 155 is used to cite the phrase "bishops from Düsseldorf." But according to the source, the complaint came from Bishops about a concert in Dusseldorf.
 * ✅ Reworded. Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 156 (People article about the response to using a cross on the Confessions tour) doesn't appear to have the quote cited
 * ✅ The quote is on the right, in a scroll-down box. Jennie | ☎ 20:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 168 states I Am Because We Are received critical acclaim - worth adding to the article
 * ✅ Included this. Jennie | ☎ 18:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 169 (LA times article on Filth and Wisdom) does not contain the quote cited
 * ✅ Removed it. Jennie | ☎ 19:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 188 is used to cite "led to a rift between them [Madonna and Christopher Ciccone" - this might be original research, instead quote directly what the source says about the relationship between the two
 * ✅ Changed Jennie | ☎ 19:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The whole of the "2010–present" I think goes into too much depth when compared to the rest of the article, and puts undue weight on it. I think this is a more general problem with BLP articles where the subject continues to be active during the lifetime of Wikipedia, and people add in the odd sentence here and there as they find things in the news. For instance, the Material Girl fashion line probably needs a sentence or two, and the critical response to MDNA can be trimmed down to something similar without all the quotes.
 * ✅ Trimmed this down, think it could even further to be honest. Jennie | ☎ 19:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 214 states "Critical respones to the film [W.E.] has been negative, but looking at the actual critic reviews on Metacritic, it would seem that "mixed" would be a better term
 * ✅ I agree, changed Jennie | ☎ 19:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * In "Influences", it states "Madonna is dedicated to Kabbalah", yet at least one reference I looked at (sorry, can't remember which one now!) says she's distanced herself from it in recent years.
 * There are sources on the internet showing her attending the NYC Kabbalah Centre in May 2012. Jennie | ☎ 19:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I have now gone though the whole career section. There's still quite a lot of the article to go, but a lot of it is cited from books I don't have, so it's impossible to check a lot of this. As it stands, I can see over 30 unresolved issues, which is a lot of work to get through. Even disregarding the rest of the article, do you think you have all these fixed within a week, bearing in mind there might well be things I haven't spotted yet that also needed to be added to the workload? If I find substantially more issues with the rest of the article, it really does start to cross the line between "On Hold" and "Fail", I'm afraid. -- Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   16:50, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph of "Musical style" is mostly reliant on a single book source, and would seem to be just one person's opinion. I think this entire paragraph can go without losing anything, except possibly the influence on the gay community (which I think would require a couple of sources) and the critical acclaim of Ray of Light (which is documented elsewhere)
 * ✅ I agree, it's very clunky, I've removed and merged. Jennie | ☎ 20:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 235 cites that Madonna was whipped with a rubber hose as a child. Again, per our BLP policy this needs citing multiple times or toned down
 * I could understand if this didn't come from the original source, but it is the original, and any other sources would just be others referring to the original. Jennie | ☎ 20:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The quote from reference 268 talks about lip syncing in general - the sentence here gives the impression it's attributed specifically to Madonna, which strays into original research
 * ✅ Reworded


 * The quote from reference 275 is a bit out of context, and overlong. In the same source, Elton also says "I don't think it's the best Madonna record and I'm a big fan." The quote gives the impression he can't stand her, rather then merely being disappointed with her post Ray of Light work
 * ✅ I've re-orded this section and trimmed the quote. Jennie | ☎ 20:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * There's an update here - they've made up, apparently!-- Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   14:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The first sentence in the "Legacy" section wants at least one other source attributed to it lest it be accused of puffery. As reference 276 is behind a paywall, I can't easily check it
 * ✅ Added a source from MTV. Jennie | ☎ 20:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 284 does contain the quote cited
 * ✅ It doesn't - removed. Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Aside from her critical acknowledgement, Madonna has also earned overwhelming commercial accomplishments" - overwhelming to whom? Probably just best to stick to the bare facts cited by the sources
 * ✅ Very weasely, removed.Jennie | ☎ 20:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 287 seems to be a search box that doesn't support the sentence its cited to.
 * ✅ Agreed, removed. Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Unlike reference 288, I wouldn't describe Madonna as a "rock" artist - "dance / pop" artist, maybe. Still, if it's in a good reference (which it is), it can stay


 * Reference 289 states that the Sticky & Sweet Tour "remains the highest-grossing tour of all time by a solo artist". This reference is four years old and is just waiting to become in accurate. Better to explicitly state, "as of 2008, it was the highest-grossing tour of all time by a solo artist"
 * This record still stands though, and until something can challenge it, there is no reason to remove it. I wikilinked List of highest-grossing concert tours to support this further. Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The alt description of File:Madonnaperformingstickyandsweettour2008.jpg is, well "interesting", to say the least.
 * ✅ Ahahaha, I have to say I thought this was quite funny, who ever went to that much trouble is dedicated. I removed it. Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * There a few bits in the second paragraph of "Legacy" not attribute to any source - I've tagged these.
 * ✅ Sourced. I've replaced the third quote as it slipped into original research. Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The third paragraph of "Legacy" seems to repeat a few things already stated in "Musical Style", particularly her ability to reinvent herself.
 * ✅ I removed parts of it, but it is important. Her ability to reinvent herself is arguably key to her legacy. Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 299 seems to be a bit POV pushing.
 * Hmm...As this is from a published source I'm not sure what to do. I think I'll leave it for someone else to decide. Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Reference 306 is behind a firewall
 * ✅ Removed.

Well I think that's it, so I'm putting the review On hold until everything else is resolved, at which point I'll do a final check, and if all's good, it'll pass.

And finally, as some light hearted relief ... some personal memories that didn't make it to the article (probably due to lack of references) are Doc Cox singing a faux nursery rhyme on That's Life! circa 1990 with the words "Twinkle, twinkle, little star ... what is in Madonna's bra?" and the occasional reference to Madonna in the British rock press as "Madge" (whether this is disparaging or affectionate went unrecorded). -- Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   20:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it turns out "Madge" is reliably sourced so might be worth adding somewhere after all!-- Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   14:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Someone else has done this :) Jennie | ☎ 18:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've gone through again and I've found a few minor MOS issues, which I've fixed myself, which means the only outstanding issue I can see is I believe "Truth or Dare" being named "In Bed With Madonna" in Europe is cited to an unreliable source. I'll have a look round for a better source myself now, after which we'll be done. Watch this space.... -- Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   15:39, 6 September 2012 (UTC)