Talk:Maguindanao massacre

Journalist victims
The "Media Fundraiser"-section references 32 victims among the journalist while the article consistently mentions 34. Was the result of the fundraiser really awarded to only 32 families of those victims, or is it just a typo? 217.50.252.112 (talk) 14:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Image
I understand the desire for an image, but I think this ten-year old image of guerrillas is inappropriate. There is no indication that the people in that photo took part in the attacks, or even that they are still in one of these rogue paramilitary groups. Associating identifiable individuals with this massacre is inappropriate unless reliable sources connect them to it.--chaser (talk) 18:53, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no insinuation that anyone photographed was part of the attack. It's common practice, at least among news publications, to use stock photographs closely related to the context of a news event. BLP doesn't apply, since it would be next to impossible to identify any individual in the picture, especially since most of these young people are now a decade older. I haven't found a better free alternative yet and the image was posted to discourage use of press agency photos in current circulation. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 19:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC) (& further to blp concern, the only decipherable face could be blurred ˉˉanetode╦╩ 19:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC))
 * I still really don't like the association, but your first point persuaded me that there's no BLP problem.--chaser (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * According to this AP article, Maguindanao is in a "lawless region that has been outside the central government's reach for generations, and where warlords backed by private armies go by their own rules", so it is possible that a local warlord's fighters and not "guerilla forces" related to any of the three rebel/terrorist groups active in Mindanao—Abu Sayyaf, Jemaah Islamiyah, and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (I don't know whether the New People's Army has been active in Mindanao in recent years)—were responsible. This article in the Christian Science Monitor and this one in The Telegraph seem to support that notion. If the image remains, I think we should at least change the caption and not suggest that the massacre was carried out by guerilla forces (or "a similar group of armed men") until we know more from reliable sources. –B LACK F ALCON  (T ALK ) 05:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Current speculation is that it was a group of armed men recruited by the opposing political clan that included local police, private mercenaries, and assorted fighters recruited from local insurrectionists. It's certainly difficult to differentiate between specific groups and their motivations considering the widespread arms proliferation and frequent regional disputes. The image is a placeholder, a sort of revelant decoration, so the caption should be phrased as loosely as possible. If, as it appears, there is a growing consensus to remove it, then I have no serious objections to doing so. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 06:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * All content and image that is wrong or misleading should be removed as soon as possible. No matter what the caption is, the image will mislead readers.--1j1z2 (talk) 06:34, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The election
Esmael Mangudadatu isn't challenging the incumbent governor Andal Ampatuan. Andal Ampatuan is not going to seek re-election in 2010. It's Ampatuan's son (I forgot his name) campaining.--1j1z2 (talk) 18:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Confusingly, it looks like one is Jr., the other perhaps Sr.--chaser (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * They both go by the same name. I guess the guy likes his name so much that he named his son after himself.Evox777 (talk) 20:50, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Description of events
I think the article misses details about what happened, it just states who the victims were. I hope any such details are aviable? Mverleg (talk) 23:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If no one beats me to it, I'd add it by the weekend. The way they were killed was very graphic so let's how far I can go... – Howard  the   Duck  01:00, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems some innocent motorists were mistakenly killed. http://www.gmanews.tv/story/177776/innocent-motorists-among-massacre-victims-in-ampatuan Evox777 (talk) 20:56, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There aren't any actual eyewitnesses so far, is there? So any description will have to be a bit generic though the brutality of what went on is clear from the reporting. /Strausszek (talk) 05:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Updated breakdown of casualties
According to this Associated Press article, the victims include "21 women and 25 men", 18 of whom were journalists. Since most other news sources have reported 12 journalists killed, I am not updating the figure in the article yet; however, I think it's worth noting and following. –B LACK F ALCON  (T ALK ) 05:51, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Suspected Perpetrator
Suspected perpetrator(s) Andal Ampatuan, Jr and his family clan

Please delete this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agnosticpoet (talk • contribs) 14:14, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This is apparently the person witnesses saw playing a leading role at the scene of the killings. Badagnani (talk) 07:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Weapon
The "weapon/s" used should be fixed. AKs aren't that common in the Philippines, and from what I've read, M16s and machetes were used. 125.60.159.198 (talk) 21:43, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Ampatuan Massacre, not Maguindanao?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was deferred. Wizardman  05:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The media has begun referring to the massacre specific name of the town, rather than the very vague and general name of the province. If that usage begins to become more popular, then I believe it will be more appropriate in the long term. At the moment, there is a flux where the two usages are equally popular. So I'll just tag this for now, and lets see when things cool down whether the term Ampatuan Massacere will stick, rather than Maguindanao Massacre. -- RE de Leon, Alternativity (talk) 06:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Maguindanao massacre → Ampatuan massacre — As per reasons cited above. --Alternativity (talk) 06:49, 26 November 2009 (UTC)


 * For the record, I created the redirect page for Ampatuan massacre, just in case some people would prefer to do their searches by that phrase. But I agree, all the same let's wait and see how the media will refer to this incident, as far as naming is concerned. --- Tito Pao (talk) 07:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Defer for a month. The initial name for this event is "Maguindanao massacre" and that's pretty hard to shake it off, but I do think it'll gravitate towards "Ampatuan massacre" in the long run. – Howard  the   Duck  07:19, 26 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Defer. Per a quick Google lookup: 203,000 hits for "Maguindanao massacre" vs. 81,700 hits for "Ampatuan massacre". &mdash; •KvЯt GviЯnЭlБ•  Speak!  09:27, 26 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Defer I agree with Howard, most people still knows it as "Maguindanao massacre". they still associate the name "Ampatuan" with the governor (am I correct) and not the town. Besides, if we rename it now, some readers might get confused and treat it like the Vizconde massacre, in that the word "Vizconde" refers to the victims. They might think that it was the Ampatuans who got killed. Flamerounin (talk) 09:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the people associate "Ampatuan" with both; I was schoked when I frist heard that there is a political family named also Ampatuan. I think the town was named after the family, but that's just an opinion.Heran et Sang&#39;gres (talk) 16:26, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The town is named after the family. --Sky Harbor (talk) 03:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Defer People everywhere are now familiar with "Maguinadanao Massacre" (rather than "Ampatuan"), so why go confusing the populace searching for information? But who knows? Somehow there might be a more formal term waiting to describe this unfortuante & tragic event...Heran et Sang&#39;gres (talk) 16:26, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Should this be included in Operation Enduring Freedom - Philippines?
Should this be included in Operation Enduring Freedom - Philippines? Or is it an unrelated tragedy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo8rge (talk • contribs) 12:55, 27 November 2009


 * The incident is completely unrelated to OEF-P. This is a political massacre, not an ambush by the ASG or the MILF. --Sky Harbor (talk) 13:11, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Participation of police and soldiers
Witnesses have apparently said that some uniformed police and soldiers participated in the killing, being among the 100 armed men who perpetrated the massacre. This should be sourced and added to the article. Badagnani (talk) 22:32, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

On Red Links
I just noticed that there are quite a lot of red links on the article. Can we check whether these were simple errors, or that there are reaaly no articles these go into? Flamerounin (talk) 02:38, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, I already fixed the links. i highlighted the more important ones. just reconnect them if there's already an article or a good source. Flamerounin (talk) 02:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Equipment term backhoe ?

 * I know that even the national press uses the term "backhoe", but base on the footage from the news it is clearly an excavator. A backhoe is a tractor with a front-end loader with a "hoe" at the back and it has no tracks but wheels such as a Cat 420 etc.They are totally completely different machine but closely related. If facts is to be preserve I suggest to change it to the proper term.

Msevero (talk) 14:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Martial law ek ek
I'm removing that subsection. It's not necessary. It's not even mentioned in the Tagalog version of the article.--124.104.35.184 (talk) 15:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC) grabi ng tao na to parang wlang awa ano na ba ang ngyayari sa philipinas wla na ba kayong awa sa mga tao na inyong pina pata Italic textpotang ina nyo wla kayong awa sa na d kana makaka labas ng kulongan..... ang mga tao ay hindi mga hayop na pinapay at iitapon lang

ang guawa nyan ay hindi tao isang wlang hiyang hayop potan ina ka mamatay ka sa ana —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.74.53.39 (talk) 00:48, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Sources appear to disagree re Marcos or Cory
Re this edit, I looked at the Andal Ampatuan, Sr. article for info, but found what looks like a disagreement between sources on this point. I opened a discission abo9ut that at Andal Ampatuan, Sr.. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The information needs to update in this page are:
 * 1) The family disputes between the Mangudadatu and Ampatuan on political, clan rivalry.
 * 2) Aftermath events on roadside bombing on the site.
 * 3) Images of the Accused.
 * 4) The legal battles and Trial.
 * 5) Shrine update.
 * 6) Captured accused and still on lost with wanted.
 * 7) Update of the journalist that is still missing. (unfounded body)
 * 8) Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao election postponement.  Republic Act No. 10153

Bonvallite (talk) 04:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Names of massacre victims
See a related discussion here and WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:VL which are mentioned there. I'm wondering what regular editors of this article think regarding this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 18:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Role of then Colonel Medardo Geslani
Shouldn't it be mentioned in the article that then Colonel Medardo Geslani refused Mangudadatu's relatives' request to give protectional convoy? 49.149.42.219 (talk) 13:00, 4 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Information added. 49.146.34.248 (talk) 02:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Here, I've reverted this addition of material which, IMO, needs more consideration in light of WP:BLP. Please discuss here and reach editorial consensus before re-adding. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:55, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * In this news article, he was mentioned. Philippine Daily Inquirer is a newspaper in the Philippines with a wide circulation. 49.146.34.248 (talk) 10:01, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Italic title? How??
The article title displays in italics – which is incorrect. But I can't figure out how to change. Any ideas?? – S. Rich (talk) 22:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Never mind. The italics came from the lower infobox. Now correct. – S. Rich (talk) 23:05, 21 December 2019 (UTC)