Talk:Malacca Sultanate/Archive 1

[Untitled]
Isn't this article a little bias?? Based on Malaysia's own claim fromt tales but with no further evidence to support it?? Malacca 1st king was not properly explained... Hang Li Po remains a Mystery.. and the five great warriors of Malacca remains a legend...
 * you're welcomed to make changes. However, the five warriors are merely legend. Not quite history. __earth

By Sabri Zain

There are basically only two historical records which give in some detail the beginnings of Melaka - the Sejarah Melayu (Malay Annals) written some time in the 15th or 16th century, and modified in 1612 by the Johor court; and Suma Oriental, by Tom Pires, a Portuguese who lived in Melaka after its conquest in 1511.

Both accounts do contain a core of similar information. Both trace the lineage of the Melaka Sultans to a ruler of Palembang in Sumatra; both describe his departure for Temasek (Singapore); both describe a flight to Muar, Bertam and finally Melaka; and both have an account of the famous mousedeer story that prompted Melaka's ruler to choose it as the base for his new kingdom.

Beyond this, however, the two accounts differ markedly.

This article 100% wrong and formulated to promoted the malays history of sultanate, Parameswara eventually was help the rebellious to attack Tamasik (Singapore) which he, was on running man when he was defeated by sultanates of tamasik, Parameswara was no a muslim at that time after founding melaka and make this little piece of land became a free tax, it was establish around the world until the empayer of china came, before that melaka was paying a tax to siam. I just don't like when people trying to promoted lies because of something, history is always be a history.Then parammeswara was convert to Islam during his time in melaka NOT During TAMSIK until the one of the princess of china, name Hang li poh was also convert to islam in mix-married to sultan of melaka. That the real story. How these people ,trying to promoted the lies of history,"David" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.52.29.102 (talk) 08:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

hasrul

Fall of Malacca
Just wondering if anybody did any actual research on this (apart from the school text books) but Emanuel Godinho de Eredia placed the date of the Portuguese conquest of Malacca on the 15th of August, 1511. Does anybody else have any other sources they can cite? I have a copy (translated 1929) of Eredia's 1613 - Description of Malaca and Meridional India and Cathay in Three Treatises dedicated to the King, Dom Phelippe at Goa, 24th November, 1613.


 * For his case I would argue that de Eredia was first and foremost a Malaccan by birth (he was born in Malacca on 15th July 1563) and so was closest to the most legitimate source of information, as some of the Portuguese soldiers that took part in the 1511 battle settled there and bore descendants. So oral traditions might have been passed more faithfully, considering that it is only two - three generations since the events. Consider the case if the treatises were written by someone living in Europe at that time.


 * Second, being a son of a Portuguese missionary (Juan de Eredia) and a Malay (Bugis) princess (from Macassar, Celebes) (named Dona Elena Vessiva). Eredia would have two sources to verify his facts, from the Portuguese records and from the court traditions of his maternal grandfather the King of Supa.

So is there any other credible source for the date ? Cheers.

--Bukhrin 17:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Sejarah Melayu and St james
i agree with bukhrin. there should be a proper research regarding the actual date of Malacca's fall. i thought that there was mention of the date of the Fall in the Sejarah Melayu. i don't know, but i'll check it out. also, i read in the book "My People, My Country" by Bernard Sta maria and he mentioned that the portuguese fired the first cannon on St james Day, the portuguese patron saint, and conquered Malacca fifteen days later.

Malacca Sultanate Cuisine
Curious to find out what sort of royal cuisine/foods the sultan & his family eaten back then? Any idea? L joo 17:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I only know Malaysian spice brand "Adabi" claims that their pre-mixed spices are from "Ancient Royal Cuisine".(Malay:"Sajian Istana Di Zaman Silam; official English "Foods for Kings"). 115.132.126.212 (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Malacca or Melaka?
The name should be Melaka instead of Malacca. Understandbly that most Western books and references referred to it as Malacca but it is the corruption of its real name by English language speakers.

It's like naming America as Amerika, English as Inggeris, Thailand as Siam, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Suryasuharman (talk • contribs) 10:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

'Melaka/Malacca' is roman alphabet but the sultanate already exist 100+ years before the Portuguese arrived. L joo 20:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Malaccan Weapons
Reading "Portuguese invasion and its effects" I discovered this >> "Although Malacca seems to have been well supplied with artillery, but the combination of Portuguese firepower, determination and fanatical courage prevailed...."

Dictionary: [ ARTILLERY ] definition
 * 1. Large-caliber weapons, such as cannon, howitzers, and missile launchers, that are operated by crews.
 * 2. The combat arm that specializes in the use of such weapons.
 * 3. The science of the use of guns; gunnery.
 * 4. Weapons, such as catapults, arbalests, and other early devices, used for discharging missiles.

I'm curious, what kind of Malaccan Weapons was that to be considered as "artillery"? Does that mean Malacca (500 years ago) already well equipped with guns, catapults, cannon, etc? L joo 21:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It might be just some light cannons bought from the Arabs. Well you'd be surprised that the Sultan's army too was equipped with muskets (though not in a sum that would give much advantage to them) and that the battle was not fought just using spears, sticks, stones and durians :D. Read it somewhere but I know I have to cite a source a two. --Bukhrin 14:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. And yeah cite a source, would like to read about it. Btw, since you mentioned durians, do they really fight with durians? L joo 15:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Islamic Arrival
The section about the islamic arrival is wrong. This story is much more a myth than historic evidence. The founder of the Malaccan Sultanate was Hindu and married the daugter of the Sulktan of Pasai. He then became Muslim since Pasai was already Muslim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Klingone86 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Malacca founded in 1262
There's new finding by researchers from Universiti Sains Malaysia (published in 2011) that Malacca was actually founded in the year 1262, and Pos Malaysia will issue new stamp (750 years of Malacca) on 7th Oct 2012. I will add a new section for this info soon. But anyone is welcome to add this info. 07 Matthew (talk) 13:15, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Kindly do the necessary to bring these new findings into the article as well as in other related articles. I was actually very interested when I first read the news about this back then, but somehow due to lack of credible sources to cite (apart from the news), it hold me back from starting the edits. I Just recently found this article published by IKSEP (Malaysian Institute of Historical Research and Patriotism), and believe that it could be a very important source. If you have more credible sources in hand, please share, regards. (سڠ ڤڠليڤور لارا (talk) 02:41, 7 October 2012 (UTC))

Dai Viet war with Malacca
Dai Viet fought raided Malaccan shipping, and according to Chinese records, Malacca fought off invading Dai Viet troops in Lan Xang.

http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps03_011.pdf

http://www.aafv.org/spip.php?action=acceder_document&arg=2559&cle=a72c793f4c842206ab899315a3419d33a4609888&file=pdf%2FSunLaichen_ChineseStyleFirearmsInDaiViet.pdf

http://www.jstor.org/stable/20072535?

Military Technology Transfers from Ming China and the Emergence of Northern Mainland Southeast Asia (c. 1390-1527) Sun Laichen Journal of Southeast Asian Studies Vol. 34, No. 3 (Oct., 2003), pp. 495-517 Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of Department of History, National University of Singapore Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20072535 Page Count: 23

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZvWrAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA75#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=R5p7cRyK748C&pg=PA111&dq=1480,+according+to+Chinese+spies,+Dai+Viet+forces+took+20+of+Lan+Xang's+strong-+points+and+killed+“over+20,000”+Lao.+...+Tra+Toan+was+captured,+Laos+collapsed,+Ryukyu+was+defeated+.+.+.+the+barbarians+in+the+four+directions+surrendered,+.+.+.+the+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jaY3U5buJompsQSo-oHYDw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=1480%2C%20according%20to%20Chinese%20spies%2C%20Dai%20Viet%20forces%20took%2020%20of%20Lan%20Xang's%20strong-%20points%20and%20killed%20“over%2020%2C000”%20Lao.%20...%20Tra%20Toan%20was%20captured%2C%20Laos%20collapsed%2C%20Ryukyu%20was%20defeated%20.%20.%20.%20the%20barbarians%20in%20the%20four%20directions%20surrendered%2C%20.%20.%20.%20the%20...&f=false

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=collapsed%2C+Ryukyu+was+defeated%2C+Cam+Cong+fled+and+died%2C+the+barbarians+in+the+four+directions+surrendered%2C+wind+blew+from+the+eight+directions.+%5BDuring+his%5D+thirty+-eight-year+rule%2C+the+country+was+peaceful+and+well+governed.+How+spectacular+...&btnG=#q=However%2C+this+so+far+is+not+substantiated+by+other+sources+and+the+records+on+the+Ryukyu+side%2C+as+the+Rekidai+hoan+(the+precious+records+of+the+consecutive+dynasties)%2C+are&tbm=bks

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA104&dq=However,+this+so+far+is+not+substantiated+by+other+sources+and+the+records+on+the+Ryukyu+side,+as+the+Rekidai+hoan+(the+precious+records+of+the+consecutive+dynasties),+are&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QdZKU_bTNvKssASljoHYCg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=However%2C%20this%20so%20far%20is%20not%20substantiated%20by%20other%20sources%20and%20the%20records%20on%20the%20Ryukyu%20side%2C%20as%20the%20Rekidai%20hoan%20(the%20precious%20records%20of%20the%20consecutive%20dynasties)%2C%20are&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA105&dq=collapsed,+Ryukyu+was+defeated,+Cam+Cong+fled+and+died,+the+barbarians+in+the+four+directions+surrendered,+wind+blew+from+the+eight+directions.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G6Y3U7DhAo3NsQS8hYLADA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=collapsed%2C%20Ryukyu%20was%20defeated%2C%20Cam%20Cong%20fled%20and%20died%2C%20the%20barbarians%20in%20the%20four%20directions%20surrendered%2C%20wind%20blew%20from%20the%20eight%20directions.&f=false

Title	Ming-Southeast Asian overland interactions, 1368-1644 Author	Laichen Sun Publisher	University of Michigan, 2000

266

http://books.google.com/books?id=o4QfAQAAMAAJ&q=However,+this+so+far+is+not+substantiated+by+other+sources+and+the+records+on+the+Ryukyu+side,+as+the+Rekidai+hoan+(the+precious+records+of+the+consecutive+dynasties),+are&dq=However,+this+so+far+is+not+substantiated+by+other+sources+and+the+records+on+the+Ryukyu+side,+as+the+Rekidai+hoan+(the+precious+records+of+the+consecutive+dynasties),+are&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QdZKU_bTNvKssASljoHYCg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=o4QfAQAAMAAJ&q=In+1485,+Dai+Viet+included+Malacca+on+the+list+of+tributary+countries+such+as+Champa,+Lang+Sang,+Ayudhya,+and+Java.1221+According+to+a+Vietnamese+source,+Dai+Viet+during+the+late+Hong-duc+reign+(1470-97)+also+subdued+Ryukyu+(+Liuqiu).&dq=In+1485,+Dai+Viet+included+Malacca+on+the+list+of+tributary+countries+such+as+Champa,+Lang+Sang,+Ayudhya,+and+Java.1221+According+to+a+Vietnamese+source,+Dai+Viet+during+the+late+Hong-duc+reign+(1470-97)+also+subdued+Ryukyu+(+Liuqiu).&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M6c3U9ewKeLQsQSL7IGoBg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=o4QfAQAAMAAJ&q=The+details+of+Dai+Viet's+attempted+aggression+are+not+available,+but+it+seems+that+Malacca+was+directly+threatened+in+...+expanded+the+territories;+Tra+Toan+was+captured,+Laos+collapsed,+Ryukyu+was+defeated,+Cam+Cong+fled+and+died,+the&dq=The+details+of+Dai+Viet's+attempted+aggression+are+not+available,+but+it+seems+that+Malacca+was+directly+threatened+in+...+expanded+the+territories;+Tra+Toan+was+captured,+Laos+collapsed,+Ryukyu+was+defeated,+Cam+Cong+fled+and+died,+the&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kKU3U7tck6-wBKa0gZAG&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=o4QfAQAAMAAJ&q=According+to+Mao+Qiling+(hezhi+Mansi,+vol.+10,+p.+Lb),+Le+Thanh-tong+led+90,000+troops+to+invade+Lan+Sang+but+were+chased+by+%5Bthe+troops+of%5D+Malacca,+and+30,000+soldiers+died.+It+is+hard+to+explain+how+this+happened&dq=According+to+Mao+Qiling+(hezhi+Mansi,+vol.+10,+p.+Lb),+Le+Thanh-tong+led+90,000+troops+to+invade+Lan+Sang+but+were+chased+by+%5Bthe+troops+of%5D+Malacca,+and+30,000+soldiers+died.+It+is+hard+to+explain+how+this+happened&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g6Q3U7m0DKGosATh8oCgBQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=o4QfAQAAMAAJ&q=However,+this+so+far+is+not+substantiated+by+other+sources+and+the+records+on+the+Ryukyu+side,+as+the+Rekidai+hoan+(the+precious+records+of+the+consecutive+dynasties),+are&dq=However,+this+so+far+is+not+substantiated+by+other+sources+and+the+records+on+the+Ryukyu+side,+as+the+Rekidai+hoan+(the+precious+records+of+the+consecutive+dynasties),+are&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RKY3U820O5SmsQSV4oCwAQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ

107

http://books.google.com/books?id=FNGGAAAAIAAJ&q=Though+Marrison+translated+Rakiu+as+Formosa,+it+should+be+understood+as+Ryukyu+kingdom,+and+it+is+likely+that+the+relations+...+Ceramics+and+silk+Confronted+with+Malacca+and+Ryukyu,+both+of+which+took+sides+with+Champa,+Dai-Viet+may+have+...&dq=Though+Marrison+translated+Rakiu+as+Formosa,+it+should+be+understood+as+Ryukyu+kingdom,+and+it+is+likely+that+the+relations+...+Ceramics+and+silk+Confronted+with+Malacca+and+Ryukyu,+both+of+which+took+sides+with+Champa,+Dai-Viet+may+have+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6KY3U4DMLsTLsQSr4YCQBQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=fjsEn3w4TPgC&pg=PA365&dq=1999.+“A+Short+Introduction+to+Champa+Studies.”+In+The+Dry+Areas+in+Southeast+Asia,+Fukui+Hayao,+65—74.+Kyoto:+Center+for+Southeast+Asian+Studies,+Kyoto+University.+.+2008.+“Was+Dai+Viet+a+Rival+of+Ryukyu.”+In+China+and+Southeast+Asia,+ed.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tqY3U_nwM-q2sASk64DwAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=1999.%20“A%20Short%20Introduction%20to%20Champa%20Studies.”%20In%20The%20Dry%20Areas%20in%20Southeast%20Asia%2C%20Fukui%20Hayao%2C%2065—74.%20Kyoto%3A%20Center%20for%20Southeast%20Asian%20Studies%2C%20Kyoto%20University.%20.%202008.%20“Was%20Dai%20Viet%20a%20Rival%20of%20Ryukyu.”%20In%20China%20and%20Southeast%20Asia%2C%20ed.&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=-01JisWpJbEC&pg=PA383&dq=115+Momoki+Shiro,+“Was+Dai+Viet+a+Rival+of+Ryukyu+within+the+Tributary+Trade+System+of+the+Ming+during+the+Early+Le+Period?”+(ms).+On+Dai+Viet's+foreign+trade+and+bullion+flows+in+this+period,+see+too+Sakurai,+“Age+of+Commerce,”+2;+Abu+Ridho,+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-6Y3U4_YNLe1sASjo4D4Dg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=115%20Momoki%20Shiro%2C%20“Was%20Dai%20Viet%20a%20Rival%20of%20Ryukyu%20within%20the%20Tributary%20Trade%20System%20of%20the%20Ming%20during%20the%20Early%20Le%20Period%3F”%20(ms).%20On%20Dai%20Viet's%20foreign%20trade%20and%20bullion%20flows%20in%20this%20period%2C%20see%20too%20Sakurai%2C%20“Age%20of%20Commerce%2C”%202%3B%20Abu%20Ridho%2C%20...&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=ggyl2FSzXvgC&pg=PA13&dq=Third,+new+market+opportunities+opened+up+in+Japan,+possibly+in+connection+with+the+Ryukyu+network,+and+also+in+...+See,+for+example,+Shiro+Momoki,+%22Was+Dai-+Viet+a+Rival+of+Ryukyu+within+the+Tributary+Trade+System+of+the+Ming+during+the+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Fqc3U9WAE8zKsQTWwYLQAg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Third%2C%20new%20market%20opportunities%20opened%20up%20in%20Japan%2C%20possibly%20in%20connection%20with%20the%20Ryukyu%20network%2C%20and%20also%20in%20...%20See%2C%20for%20example%2C%20Shiro%20Momoki%2C%20%22Was%20Dai-%20Viet%20a%20Rival%20of%20Ryukyu%20within%20the%20Tributary%20Trade%20System%20of%20the%20Ming%20during%20the%20...&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=aSEJqSQS7wkC&pg=PA172&dq=The+Ryukyu+Islands,+it+is+well-known,+were+connected+to+various+ports+in+Southeast+Asia.+Therefore,+pepper,+sappanwood+and+...+%22Was+Dai+Viet+during+the+Early+Le+Period+(1428-1527)+a+Rival+of+Ryukyu?%22+-+On+the+maritime+horse+trade,+see+R.+P.+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Kac3U4SjKavnsAT6koKIAg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Ryukyu%20Islands%2C%20it%20is%20well-known%2C%20were%20connected%20to%20various%20ports%20in%20Southeast%20Asia.%20Therefore%2C%20pepper%2C%20sappanwood%20and%20...%20%22Was%20Dai%20Viet%20during%20the%20Early%20Le%20Period%20(1428-1527)%20a%20Rival%20of%20Ryukyu%3F%22%20-%20On%20the%20maritime%20horse%20trade%2C%20see%20R.%20P.%20...&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=52kfAQAAIAAJ&q=The+Ryukyu+Islands,+it+is+well-known,+were+connected+to+various+ports+in+Southeast+Asia.+Therefore,+pepper,+sappanwood+and+...+%22Was+Dai+Viet+during+the+Early+Le+Period+(1428-1527)+a+Rival+of+Ryukyu?%22+-+On+the+maritime+horse+trade,+see+R.+P.+...&dq=The+Ryukyu+Islands,+it+is+well-known,+were+connected+to+various+ports+in+Southeast+Asia.+Therefore,+pepper,+sappanwood+and+...+%22Was+Dai+Viet+during+the+Early+Le+Period+(1428-1527)+a+Rival+of+Ryukyu?%22+-+On+the+maritime+horse+trade,+see+R.+P.+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Kac3U4SjKavnsAT6koKIAg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=05x5UGA8MmAC&pg=PA59&dq=ryukyu+dai+viet&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-6M3U92gA-vKsQShxILAAQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=ryukyu%20dai%20viet&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA104#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA105#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA103#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA119#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA110#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=TgkYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA252#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA104#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=R5p7cRyK748C&pg=PA111#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=R5p7cRyK748C&pg=PA110#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc30ytJmwzMC&pg=PA110#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=R5p7cRyK748C&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzh1fQEEFPAC&pg=PA101&dq=champa+gunpowder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sNVKU5bAIOGgsQS9v4DIBw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=champa%20gunpowder&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 22:08, 21 April 2014 (UTC)